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England - second half of the 80s vs now...

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
Morning - was born in 1982 so what I'm talking about in the second half of the 80s is from stuff I've read and heard elsewhere.

There seems to be a consensus amongst a majority of English fans that the Test team is in a state of mini-crisis and that the domestic structure, no longer fit for purpose, is in need of an overhaul. I'm not arguing with anyone who suggests that change is necessary as County cricket doesn't seem to be producing the players in sufficient volume to make the step up to the international game. What that change should be has been explored elsewhere.

But...I was illuminated somewhat by Andrew Strauss' observation that England have spent more time in the lower reaches of the test hierarchy in the last 40 years than they have with any realistic shot of competing to be the best team in the world. I remember writing a piece about the series loss to New Zealand at the end of the 20th century, where the crowd sang "we've got the worst team in the world" after the match. The 1990s were not exactly glory years for the England team, albeit there was the odd memorable performance and result. Just a year before that low point England had (albeit a tad fortunately) pipped South Africa 2-1 at home, which was their five test series win since the 1986-87 Ashes. That leads us nicely into...

While the 1990s is remembered now by many of us as bit of a golden era for the game, the 1980s and particularly the second half of it tend not to attract anything like the same kind of nostalgia (may be an age thing so please correct if the need arises). That England won the 1985 and 1986/7 Ashes against an Australian team in transition does seem to camouflage that in many ways these series were battles to not be the second worst team in the world, seeing as Sri Lanka were new to the world scene and would take until the next decade to realise their potential. England failed to win a home match against anyone other than Sri Lanka between 1986 and 1990, losing to India, New Zealand, West Indies and Pakistan before the culmination that was (an albeit not great) Australia dishing out a 4-0 hammering that could have been 6-0 but for the rain, Quite why English players were regular candidates for 'rebel tours' escapes me.

Away from home wasn't much better, with the Shakoor Rana vs Mike Gatting tour of Pakistan and another 'Blackwash' punctuating the second half of the decade.

England's match record between the 1986 Blackwash and the 1989 Ashes was:- P39 W3 D17 L19. That is truly horrific, there's no other word for it,

I've read a few of the autobiographies of players around this era and Ian Botham's was probably the most memorable one. I have mixed feelings about Botham, who for a few years at the turn of the 70s and 80s was one of the best cricketers ever to play the game but whose self-confidence had a tendency to cross over into delusion as he appeared to think he was an elite level cricketer several years after he had ceased being so. Looking back it's strange that people talked about the Gooch-Gatting-Gower-Lamb-Botham era with any kind of reverence, although David Gower strikes me as being hard done by and Gooch would become the best batsman in the world for a few years at the end of his 30s. There seemed to be be an almost negligent lack of understanding of precisely how bad this England team actually was and the 1990s, often a frustrating decade, look like a positive recovery by comparison.

I'm particularly interested in the thoughts of those who watched it unfold at the time and can remember it clearly. Was there an understanding amongst fans of the sport that the England team was pretty dreadful? To what extent did a couple of Ashes series victories paper over the cracks? Was the culture around the team as unprofessional as the likes of Graham Gooch later indicated when he changed things? Did the rebel tours provide an unwelcome distraction?

Many Thanks in advance...
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
My recollection of watching at the time was of it really only unravelling in the home summers of 88 and 89. We had a great series win in India and won the Ashes in 85. We knew we couldn't compete with the West Indies. They had their best side ever and the pitches were often quite dangerous over there - the 5-0 defeat was expected, but it wasn't all quite as gutless as more recent surrenders in Australia. The defeats in 86 at home to India and New Zealand were disappointing but not overly depressing. The 86/87 Ashes Tour was one where everything went right and was great. The 87 home loss to Pakistan was a pretty good series which Pakistan deservedly won. The following winter we reached the World Cup Final and had the best of the one off Test in Australia. The Pakistan series away was a farce that doesn't really merit any credit or criticism of the England players in terms of performance. It was up and down and statistically not a lot of Test wins, but it was 1988 when it all became more shambolic. The West Indies were still a great side and favourites for the series, but we choose just about everyone who was eligible and somehow had four captains who inexplicably included Chris Cowdrey. 1989 was probably the worst of all. The First Test was heading for a certain draw but we capitulated on the last day and were outplayed for the rest of the summer. Before the series started we weren't really aware of Mark Taylor, and Steve Waugh had played about 25 (ish) Tests without making a century.
I don't think the rebel tours made much difference to anything. David Gower didn't believe in fitness training and made net practise optional for senior players. Definitely the opposite of what Gooch believed in.

I think it's more depressing now, but that might in part be because we can watch it all on TV as it happens instead of the then haphazard radio commentary and news reports.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I think India won in England in 1986 as well, so I guess the second half of 80s does make sense as a dark period in English cricket, although I do think England were an absolute joke throughout the 90s as well.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
This is @wpdavid territory surely.
Yup, it wasn't good. Five successive home series defeats from 1986 to1989 was as grim as it sounds, with only one test win at home in a one-off test against emergent SL over that period. As LT said, the 'rebel' tours didn't affect anything, as their impact was either side of the period under discussion. Oddly enough, we actually did better in those periods than when everyone was available in the second half of the 1980s.

Going through those series, I felt more strongly about the 1986 losses than LT. We had lost at home to India before, that was in the second half of the summer, not the first. Conditions are generally a bit damper then, so losing 2-0 was not expected. Losing the other series that summer 0-1 to NZ wasn't such a shock tbh as we all knew how good Hadlee was and they had been competitive for years by then. The other thing about 1986 was how many players we got through that summer; 26, iirc. A sign of things to come. By the end of that summer, Gatting was in charge, which led to a year and half of sanity. We won in Aus, and the twin 1-0 losses to Pakistan could have happened to anyone. I think we then drew a handful of tests in Aus and, perhaps surprisingly, NZ, which suggested that we were on the way up again.

But the fall-out of the 1987/88 series in Pakistan and Gatting's head-to-head with Shakoor Rana meant that the selectors were looking for an excuse to ditch him. England drew the first test of the 1988 series against WI relatively comfortably, but there was a tabloid story about shenanigans in the hotel bedroom of the England captain. The official line from the selectors was that they didn't believe the tabloid story but they sacked Gatting anyway. As LT said, we then got through another 3 captains (4 if you include Pringle covering for the briefly injured Gooch at one stage) in the remaining 4 tests, all of which were lost. In the whole summer of 1988, we picked a mind boggling 28 players. WI were indeed very good, but the feeling was that we shouldn't have lost as badly as 0-4. Around this time, Pakistan drew, I think, home and away with WI, which showed what could be done.

All of which was bad enough, but 1989 was even worse. Ted Dexter had replaced Peter May as Chairman of Selectors and initially reappointed Gatting as captain, only for that decision to be vetoed by Ossie Wheatley. That didn't seem a huge problem, but we had criminally under-rated Australia. As LT said, we capitulated on Day 5 to lose the first test, which set the scene for the rest of the series. As the OP said, 0-4 could easily have been 0-6 without rain interruptions. We got through 29 players; partially, but not entirely due to losing the second group of 'rebel' tourists for the last couple of tests.

Going back to the question, yes we knew exactly how poor we were. Botham wasn't remotely the player he was, Lamb was inconsistent, as was Gower and as was Gooch in those days; his godlike spell didn't arrive until 1990. Gatting was never the same after the WI axing. And most of the players who had first appeared in the 1980s just didn't look very good. Broad and Smith the only exceptions, unless I've forgotten someone. So yes, it all felt pretty terminal. Anyone who says that the 1990s were our lowest point can't have been around in the second half of the 1980s.
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
Yup, it wasn't good. Five successive home series defeats from 1986 to1989 was as grim as it sounds, with only one test win at home in a one-off test against emergent SL over that period. As LT said, the 'rebel' tours didn't affect anything, as their impact was either side of the period under discussion. Oddly enough, we actually did better in those periods than when everyone was available in the second half of the 1980s.

Going through those series, I felt more strongly about the 1986 losses than LT. We had lost at home to India before, that was in the second half of the summer, not the first. Conditions are generally a bit damper then, so losing 2-0 was not expected. Losing the other series that summer 0-1 to NZ wasn't such a shock tbh as we all knew how good Hadlee was and they had been competitive for years by then. The other thing about 1986 was how many players we got through that summer; 26, iirc. A sign of things to come. By the end of that summer, Gatting was in charge, which led to a year and half of sanity. We won in Aus, and the twin 1-0 losses to Pakistan could have happened to anyone. I think we then drew a handful of tests in Aus and, perhaps surprisingly, NZ, which suggested that we were on the way up again.

But the fall-out of the 1987/88 series in Pakistan and Gatting's head-to-head with Shakoor Rana meant that the selectors were looking for an excuse to ditch him. England drew the first test of the 1988 series against WI relatively comfortably, but there was a tabloid story about shenanigans in the hotel bedroom of the England captain. The official line from the selectors was that they didn't believe the tabloid story but they sacked Gatting anyway. As LT said, we then got through another 3 captains (4 if you include Pringle covering for the briefly injured Gooch at one stage) in the remaining 4 tests, all of which were lost. In the whole summer of 1988, we picked a mind boggling 28 players. WI were indeed very good, but the feeling was that we shouldn't have lost as badly as 0-4. Around this time, Pakistan drew, I think, home and away with WI, which showed what could be done.

All of which was bad enough, but 1989 was even worse. Ted Dexter had replaced Peter May as Chairman of Selectors and initially reappointed Gatting as captain, only for that decision to be vetoed by Ossie Wheatley. That didn't seem a huge problem, but we had criminally under-rated Australia. As LT said, we capitulated on Day 5 to lose the first test, which set the scene for the rest of the series. As the OP said, 0-4 could easily have been 0-6 without rain interruptions. We got through 29 players; partially, but not entirely due to losing the second group of 'rebel' tourists for the last couple of tests.

Going back to the question, yes we knew exactly how poor we were. Botham wasn't remotely the player he was, Lamb was inconsistent, as was Gower and as was Gooch in those days; his godlike spell didn't arrive until 1990. Gatting was never the same after the WI axing. And most of the players who had first appeared in the 1980s just didn't look very good. Broad and Smith the only exceptions, unless I've forgotten someone. So yes, it all felt pretty terminal. Anyone who says that the 1990s were our lowest point can't have been around in the second half of the 1980s.
Many thanks for that and to everyone else who responded. Very insightful,

My understanding of India at the time was that they were a problem for anyone other than WI at home, but had a sort of travel sickness that would take several more years to fix. Losing 2-0 at home to them (and the third was a close run thing) doesn't seem like something that should really be happening.

Fair point well made about the Pakistan series - Pak were probably the #2 team in the world at the time as their drawn series against West Indies demonstrated. Looking at it historically there's an argument that by 1988 the WI downward curve that culminated in the scares against England (1990), Australia (1993) India (1994) and then the lost series at home to Australia was just starting.

They were still better than England but not 4-0 away from home better.
 

jayjay

U19 Cricketer
Morning - was born in 1982 so what I'm talking about in the second half of the 80s is from stuff I've read and heard elsewhere.

There seems to be a consensus amongst a majority of English fans that the Test team is in a state of mini-crisis and that the domestic structure, no longer fit for purpose, is in need of an overhaul. I'm not arguing with anyone who suggests that change is necessary as County cricket doesn't seem to be producing the players in sufficient volume to make the step up to the international game. What that change should be has been explored elsewhere.

But...I was illuminated somewhat by Andrew Strauss' observation that England have spent more time in the lower reaches of the test hierarchy in the last 40 years than they have with any realistic shot of competing to be the best team in the world. I remember writing a piece about the series loss to New Zealand at the end of the 20th century, where the crowd sang "we've got the worst team in the world" after the match. The 1990s were not exactly glory years for the England team, albeit there was the odd memorable performance and result. Just a year before that low point England had (albeit a tad fortunately) pipped South Africa 2-1 at home, which was their five test series win since the 1986-87 Ashes. That leads us nicely into...

While the 1990s is remembered now by many of us as bit of a golden era for the game, the 1980s and particularly the second half of it tend not to attract anything like the same kind of nostalgia (may be an age thing so please correct if the need arises). That England won the 1985 and 1986/7 Ashes against an Australian team in transition does seem to camouflage that in many ways these series were battles to not be the second worst team in the world, seeing as Sri Lanka were new to the world scene and would take until the next decade to realise their potential. England failed to win a home match against anyone other than Sri Lanka between 1986 and 1990, losing to India, New Zealand, West Indies and Pakistan before the culmination that was (an albeit not great) Australia dishing out a 4-0 hammering that could have been 6-0 but for the rain, Quite why English players were regular candidates for 'rebel tours' escapes me.

Away from home wasn't much better, with the Shakoor Rana vs Mike Gatting tour of Pakistan and another 'Blackwash' punctuating the second half of the decade.

England's match record between the 1986 Blackwash and the 1989 Ashes was:- P39 W3 D17 L19. That is truly horrific, there's no other word for it,

I've read a few of the autobiographies of players around this era and Ian Botham's was probably the most memorable one. I have mixed feelings about Botham, who for a few years at the turn of the 70s and 80s was one of the best cricketers ever to play the game but whose self-confidence had a tendency to cross over into delusion as he appeared to think he was an elite level cricketer several years after he had ceased being so. Looking back it's strange that people talked about the Gooch-Gatting-Gower-Lamb-Botham era with any kind of reverence, although David Gower strikes me as being hard done by and Gooch would become the best batsman in the world for a few years at the end of his 30s. There seemed to be be an almost negligent lack of understanding of precisely how bad this England team actually was and the 1990s, often a frustrating decade, look like a positive recovery by comparison.

I'm particularly interested in the thoughts of those who watched it unfold at the time and can remember it clearly. Was there an understanding amongst fans of the sport that the England team was pretty dreadful? To what extent did a couple of Ashes series victories paper over the cracks? Was the culture around the team as unprofessional as the likes of Graham Gooch later indicated when he changed things? Did the rebel tours provide an unwelcome distraction?

Many Thanks in advance...
Great points.

The big piece of the puzzle isn't that England has had many losing streaks and poor teams in the last 40 years, it is that the current batting line up looking completely clueless (unless playing against the WI in 2022). At least previously guys like Gatting, Botham, Athers and Hussain could stick around, show some guts etc...in the last Ashes there was none of this or rather very little of it. Not to mention a humiliating series at home against India.
 

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