Ashwin v Laker v Verity v Grimmett

[the big bambino]

Not sure why I would be biased against someone who was born in exactly the same place that I was.

Robertson-Glasgow also wrote in Wisden that there were no great English bowlers in 1939: “two or three nearly great”. He reported on Verity's endurance in South Africa: “as ever extremely steady”. Clearly Grimmett was superior there. The Barker/Rosenwater Ashes history says of the 1936-37 series: “The weakness [England's], however, lay fundamentally in spin bowling. England had none of top class...”

Finger spinners back then were sometimes divided into two categories. The slower ones like Rhodes who used flight on good pitches. And the quicker ones like Verity, who were more difficult on helpful surfaces but less resourceful on true ones. Your quote on Verity's variety refers to “wet or crumbled or sticky pitches.” Verity's 14 wickets in a day (not 15) came on a rain-affected pitch tailor-made for finger-spin, even if it was a slow turner rather than a sticky.

Comparing the first-class career average of a Yorkshireman on uncovered wickets with someone operating on the rock hard, mostly covered, Australian pitches of the inter-war period doesn't work. Sutcliffe, Woodfull and Ponsford were contemporary batsmen. Sutcliffe averaged 52, Woodfull and Ponsford both 65. Were the Australians that much better? Of course Sutcliffe, like Verity, performed better than the Australians in England. That is what you would expect. O'Reilly was almost as much of an outlier in Australia as Bradman. Nobody else averaged under 20. It is not just about averages anyway. In Ashes Tests Verity took 3.3 wickets per match, Grimmett 4.8.

The mutual antipathy between Bradman and Grimmett is well known. As is the mutual support offered between Bradman and Verity. The Yorkshireman was about the only one who claimed that Bradman didn't have a weakness on rain-damaged pitches, citing one match between Yorkshire and the Australians in 1938. Obituaries have been known to eulogise cricketers, not least war heroes.

Hammond didn't have much trouble against Grimmett in Australia, but struggled against his leg-stump line in England. Grimmett dismissed him five times during the 1930 series. Hammond averaged 46 in first-class matches when Verity was in the opposition, and was dismissed by him five times.

No argument about their bowling actions. Verity's found its way into the MCC Coaching Manual. Grimmett's would have passed muster during the roundarm era.

Robertson Glasgow was a great writer but really his comments here are hardly reflective of reality. He is too fulsome of batting on pitches that were utter roads and harsh on bowlers not dominating in conditions that robbed them of their skills. Funnily enough he concedes his own double standard by complaining about the over preparedness of pitches.

Rhodes would not have done any better. He did have one great tour of Australia but failed in his next 3 tours. Even in his successful series he obtained most of his wickets on a sticky in Melbourne. If RG were to make any comparison between the two he could not honestly claim Rhodes as clearly superior.

Australian pitches between the wars weren't covered. They produced the worst stickies in the game. Similar to the kind Rhodes banked all his success against Australia in Australia. Bradman also conceded the wicket at Lords where Verity took all those wickets was not a true sticky and could be countered by good batting. A major concession in his retirement. I don't think wpm is relevant as Australia relied heavily on Grimmett while England had a more balanced attack.

The description of Verity as mechanical is one held by those who didn't understand what they were seeing. Verity's strategy and subtleties were appreciated by the great players of the game. Bradman's comment that there was no breaking point with him should give you the clue. He was always adjusting his attack and never giving the batsmen a respite. There is an article on how he planned and exploited the observed vagaries of the Sydney pitch in 1933 to bowl England to victory.

 

[peterhrt]

Australian pitches between the wars weren't covered. They produced the worst stickies in the game.

Irving Rosenwater writing in Wisden in 1970: The complete covering of wickets in Sheffield Shield cricket from the early 1920s was said to be responsible for the decline of bowling in Australia and the almost entire absence of finger-spin.

In the years leading up to the second world war M.C.C. stood firm against the total covering of pitches, though the pressures from abroad were becoming more insistent. Australia, with total covering in domestic cricket compulsory, naturally would have wished for the same conditions in the Tests of 1936-37, but the only covering in that series was of bowlers' ends.

In Australian domestic cricket Grimmett bowled mostly on covered pitches so his first-class career average is not really comparable with Verity's. For Tests and other matches against touring sides Australian pitches were left uncovered.

 

[the big bambino]

Irving Rosenwater writing in Wisden in 1970: The complete covering of wickets in Sheffield Shield cricket from the early 1920s was said to be responsible for the decline of bowling in Australia and the almost entire absence of finger-spin.

In the years leading up to the second world war M.C.C. stood firm against the total covering of pitches, though the pressures from abroad were becoming more insistent. Australia, with total covering in domestic cricket compulsory, naturally would have wished for the same conditions in the Tests of 1936-37, but the only covering in that series was of bowlers' ends.

In Australian domestic cricket Grimmett bowled mostly on covered pitches so his first-class career average is not really comparable with Verity's. For Tests and other matches against touring sides Australian pitches were left uncovered.

Ha, I regret not putting in the qualifier that would've prevented you making a federal case over a minor issue. The basic point of the post still stands. Its an attack of the vapours to say Australian bowling declined in the interwar period, let alone because of covered wickets, and that misdiagnosis explains the pointed decline in finger spin. Australia still produced Mailey, O'Reilly, Grimmett and Fleetwood - Smith. Also Ironmonger, Blackie, Oxenham and Hornibrook, all finger spinners, cutters/medium pacers, all had successful fc and test careers, in some instances. If there was a dearth of any bowling it would've been quality pace with only Wall, McCormick and Nash of any consequence after Gregory and McDonald. You'd think that would've been the style of bowling least impacted by the absence of uncovered wickets and most encouraged by true, hard pitches.

Australia was and is a hard place to bowl spin. Local bowlers who grew up here have an advantage over foreign bowlers who don't play here regularly and have to adapt in the short time frame of a tour. Verity succeeded on shirt fronts in SA, India, Jamaica and Australia. If he were born an Australian there is no reason not to suspect he'd adapt and be as successful as Ironmonger, who bowled a similar pace and style.

 

[peterhrt]

Ha, I regret not putting in the qualifier that would've prevented you making a federal case over a minor issue. The basic point of the post still stands. Its an attack of the vapours to say Australian bowling declined in the interwar period, let alone because of covered wickets, and that misdiagnosis explains the pointed decline in finger spin. Australia still produced Mailey, O'Reilly, Grimmett and Fleetwood - Smith. Also Ironmonger, Blackie, Oxenham and Hornibrook, all finger spinners, cutters/medium pacers, all had successful fc and test careers, in some instances. If there was a dearth of any bowling it would've been quality pace with only Wall, McCormick and Nash of any consequence after Gregory and McDonald. You'd think that would've been the style of bowling least impacted by the absence of uncovered wickets and most encouraged by true, hard pitches.

Australia was and is a hard place to bowl spin. Local bowlers who grew up here have an advantage over foreign bowlers who don't play here regularly and have to adapt in the short time frame of a tour. Verity succeeded on shirt fronts in SA, India, Jamaica and Australia. If he were born an Australian there is no reason not to suspect he'd adapt and be as successful as Ironmonger, who bowled a similar pace and style.

Rosenwater seems to be referencing Charlie Turner, who claimed that his style of bowling would have been redundant in Australia during the inter-war period. After Australia lost the Ashes in 1926, Turner wrote an instruction manual entitled The Quest For Bowlers. For a long time English selectors believed that their off-spinners would be no use in Australian conditions and hardly ever picked them.

The traditional English writers tended to rate Rhodes ahead of Verity as a bowler. As late as 1977 Swanton, Frith and Arlott met to pick an all-time England XI and agreed that Rhodes remains the greatest of left-arm spinners, all conditions being taken into account. He would lend some security as a number eleven as well, his mid-career success as an opening batsman being deliberately overlooked. In 2009 he was still being picked by Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Stephen Brenkley and Scyld Berry.

This may have owed something to the nostalgic writing of Cardus and Yorkshireman AA Thomson after WW1. Contemporary reports from before the war were more mixed, with some claiming he didn't turn the ball much.

 

[the big bambino]

Rosenwater seems to be referencing Charlie Turner, who claimed that his style of bowling would have been redundant in Australia during the inter-war period. After Australia lost the Ashes in 1926, Turner wrote an instruction manual entitled The Quest For Bowlers. For a long time English selectors believed that their off-spinners would be no use in Australian conditions and hardly ever picked them.

The traditional English writers tended to rate Rhodes ahead of Verity as a bowler. As late as 1977 Swanton, Frith and Arlott met to pick an all-time England XI and agreed that Rhodes remains the greatest of left-arm spinners, all conditions being taken into account. He would lend some security as a number eleven as well, his mid-career success as an opening batsman being deliberately overlooked. In 2009 he was still being picked by Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Stephen Brenkley and Scyld Berry.

This may have owed something to the nostalgic writing of Cardus and Yorkshireman AA Thomson after WW1. Contemporary reports from before the war were more mixed, with some claiming he didn't turn the ball much.

I've no problem rating Rhodes superior; he has a strong case. I'm not totally convinced about conditions necessarily determining bowling strength. Australia had strong batting between the wars and some great spinners. The dearth of pace men here at that time is just down to hard luck imo. I mentioned Oxenham earlier and I wish he toured England in 1930. Wall, Fairfax, Hornibrook. Grimmett and Oxenham would've been a varied and complimentary attack made for the conditions. I've been reading some Trove articles on Oxenham and they mentioned an ability to vary his pace and flight together with bowling off cutters. He played the majority of his cricket in Australia and had a fc ave below 20. Really should've played more often.

 

[the big bambino]

However having said that I do think conditions in the WI have been detrimental to their batting.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've no problem rating Rhodes superior; he has a strong case. I'm not totally convinced about conditions necessarily determining bowling strength. Australia had strong batting between the wars and some great spinners. The dearth of pace men here at that time is just down to hard luck imo. I mentioned Oxenham earlier and I wish he toured England in 1930. Wall, Fairfax, Hornibrook. Grimmett and Oxenham would've a varied and complimentary attack made for the conditions. I've been reading some Trove articles on Oxenham and they mentioned an ability to vary his pace and flight together with bowling off cutters. He played the majority of his cricket in Australia and had a fc ave below 20. Really should've played more often.

Never read much of Oxenham before, thanks

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Grimmett > Laker > Ashwin > Verity

 

[PlayerComparisons]

The battle for the fourth greatest spinner

 

[Coronis]

The battle for the fourth greatest spinner

This isn’t your thread, don’t go posting one of your OPs