Are Compton and May ATGs?

[PlayerComparisons]

Two geniuses

 

[shortpitched713]

May yes, Compton no

 

[Coronis]

Be interesting to see who votes for what compared to the Williamson thread.

 

[Thala_0710]

Neither for me

 

[Majestic]

Neither.

 

[ma1978]

One.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Neither for me

Why not?

 

[Thala_0710]

Why not?

Again, same as with KW, both of them are very good bats. When you're debating whether someone is an ATG or not here, I think it's more important to debate what standard do you set or where do you draw the line as regards to ATG level. I think I rate Compton, Kw etc in the same range as others do, maybe slightly lower at worst. It's just that most people consider a lower bar for ATG status than I do.
May and Compton both, are in a similar range to KW and Kohli and Younis etc to me. All of them just miss out on ATG status

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah both are ATG, definitely. May and Compton have nothing wrong with their records other than one series where Compton played with a completely injured knee and one when May was seriously ill and sent home mid way even though he was the captain. Both were also easily rated as ATGs in their era.

 

[Jane Austen]

Yeah both are ATG, definitely. May and Compton have nothing wrong with their records other than one series where Compton played with a completely injured knee and one when May was seriously ill and sent home mid way even though he was the captain. Both were also easily rated as ATGs in their era.

You make a particularly salient point in any discussion about greaness Captain.
How was the player rated by his contemporaries whilst he was still playing.
What was written about him during his career.
Viv Richards is a case in point.Statistically a Test average of just 50 and 1st-class average of below 50 doesn’t justify the status he has.However there can’t be any dispute that he is amongst the very greatest batters of all time not least because of what was said and written about him during his playing days.
Again,contemporaries Clem Hill and Victor Trumper had very similar Test and 1st-class statistics.
Clem Hill is regarded as a great batter---Trumper as an immortal.Just read the likes of CB Fry,AE Knight,Plum Warner and other contemporary players and writers commenting about the greatness of Trumper even before his triumphant march through the soggy English season of 1902!
I have been watching cricket since 1953 and saw Peter May at his most majestic-would loved to have seen Denis Compton in full flow.
All things considered surely there can be no question that they are serious contenders for an All-Time England X1.

 

[Al Salvador]

If Compton isn't ATG then no one is. This is insane revisionism.

 

[Coronis]

Again,contemporaries Clem Hill and Victor Trumper had very similar Test and 1st-class statistics.
Clem Hill is regarded as a great batter---Trumper as an immortal.

I mean, this is a perfect example of why I don’t use peer/media rating in any form whenever I’m comparing or ranking players myself. Whilst I do indeed love the writings of Cardus and great stories of players, they can also easily be just plain incorrect.

 

[Coronis]

If Compton isn't ATG then no one is. This is insane revisionism.

Its an interesting subject to delve into. Now so far into cricket history looking back people have a different perception. But if someone was once considered an ATG, should it be possible for them to then not be ATG later on in the sport’s history? I’m sure it was unfathomable at one point for say, Fred Spofforth not to be one of the top 10 test bowlers of all time and he’d definitely be an ATG. Now? You’d rarely if ever find him on such a list. Its unfathomable currently to think that Steyn could ever not be an ATG, but what might people think in another 100 or 150 years if 30 more pacers are seen as ahead of him? Should ATG as a definition be limited to X number of players or grow as the number of players and great players does?

Varying interpretations I’m sure across many posters on the site.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Its an interesting subject to delve into. Now so far into cricket history looking back people have a different perception. But if someone was once considered an ATG, should it be possible for them to then not be ATG later on in the sport’s history? I’m sure it was unfathomable at one point for say, Fred Spofforth not to be one of the top 10 test bowlers of all time and he’d definitely be an ATG. Now? You’d rarely if ever find him on such a list. Its unfathomable currently to think that Steyn could ever not be an ATG, but what might people think in another 100 or 150 years if 30 more pacers are seen as ahead of him? Should ATG as a definition be limited to X number of players or grow as the number of players and great players does?

Varying interpretations I’m sure across many posters on the site.

Here is the thing though. I get your point, but atleast in this case, the rankings are definitely subject to heavy change, much more so than ATG status. Demon undoubtedly is an ATG afaic

 

[Al Salvador]

Its an interesting subject to delve into. Now so far into cricket history looking back people have a different perception. But if someone was once considered an ATG, should it be possible for them to then not be ATG later on in the sport’s history? I’m sure it was unfathomable at one point for say, Fred Spofforth not to be one of the top 10 test bowlers of all time and he’d definitely be an ATG. Now? You’d rarely if ever find him on such a list. Its unfathomable currently to think that Steyn could ever not be an ATG, but what might people think in another 100 or 150 years if 30 more pacers are seen as ahead of him? Should ATG as a definition be limited to X number of players or grow as the number of players and great players does?

Varying interpretations I’m sure across many posters on the site.

I think with time we have to increase number of ATGs because number of players also increase.

There are comfortably more than 3000 players who have debuted in test cricket, no harm having 80/90 players as ATGs imo

 

[Jane Austen]

I mean, this is a perfect example of why I don’t use peer/media rating in any form whenever I’m comparing or ranking players myself. Whilst I do indeed love the writings of Cardus and great stories of players, they can also easily be just plain incorrect.

I agree with you and specifically disregarded the musings of Neville Cardus firstly because he wasn't writing contemporaneously with Trumper's playing days and secondly it was the view of "on the spot" of fellow cricketers that I wish to be guided by.

Like you,I have loved reading Cardus for the last seventy years but have taken him no more seriously than I would a deliciously sweet piece of chocolate cake.





x

 

[Jane Austen]

I agree with you and specifically disregarded the musings of Neville Cardus firstly because he wasn't writing contemporaneously with Trumper's playing days and secondly it was the view of "on the spot" of fellow cricketers that I wish to be guided by.

Like you,I have loved reading Cardus for the last seventy years but have taken him no more seriously than I would a deliciously sweet piece of chocolate cake.





x

I mean, this is a perfect example of why I don’t use peer/media rating in any form whenever I’m comparing or ranking players myself. Whilst I do indeed love the writings of Cardus and great stories of players, they can also easily be just plain incorrect.

Just to add that all approaches to ascertaining meritorious autonomy will be subjective rather than definitive because the criteria chosen to arrive at the supposed logical conclusion will,of themselves,be subjective.

 

[trundler]

May does not have the longevity.

 

[Jane Austen]

Again, same as with KW, both of them are very good bats. When you're debating whether someone is an ATG or not here, I think it's more important to debate what standard do you set or where do you draw the line as regards to ATG level. I think I rate Compton, Kw etc in the same range as others do, maybe slightly lower at worst. It's just that most people consider a lower bar for ATG status than I do.
May and Compton both, are in a similar range to KW and Kohli and Younis etc to me. All of them just miss out on ATG status

To whom would you give ATG status please,particularly batters as the thread specifically relates to Compton and May.

 

[Thala_0710]

To whom would you give ATG status please,particularly batters as the thread specifically relates to Compton and May.

I have my cutoff around the Dravid-Sanga-Barrington level of batters. So those guys or the guys whom I rate as better than them. Approximately 20-25 batters I think.