All time XIs discussion

[Fuller Pilch]

Fleming and Lara should be there. Probably the best ever against Murali in SL.

 

[Coronis]

Cook did better than Smith in Asia. Also Adam Gilchrist failed in India and Andy Flower is one of the very best batsman there and if the team has only one spinner, can't see why he won't get ahead. Lara also did relatively poorly in India, and Viv was Okay in India and Pakistan both. Based on records, Border and Sobers (averages 100 odd) should be ahead of both easily. And of course, a 5 man bowling attack with only one kinda allrounder makes the batting susceptible.

I will probably go:
Hayden
Cook
Kallis
Smith
Sobers
Flower (wk)
Botham
Benaud
Hadlee
Marshall
Steyn

With all due respect, Flower is just not near Gilly as a keeper. Gilly has 4 tons in Asia, more than any keeper bar Flower, and Asia is not just India.

 

[capt_Luffy]

With all due respect, Flower is just not near Gilly as a keeper. Gilly has 4 tons in Asia, more than any keeper bar Flower, and Asia is not just India.

Now, Asia isn't only India; but India and Pakistan are by far the major challenges in Asia for it's vast majority; with the SL team having a very solid 2 decade run where they can challenge these two. Flower makes it just as a batsman imo, and Warne doesn't. So, if keeping to Warne isn't considered, I can't see why I would trade a batsman for Gilly.

 

[Coronis]

Now, Asia isn't only India; but India and Pakistan are by far the major challenges in Asia for it's vast majority; with the SL team having a very solid 2 decade run where they can challenge these two. Flower makes it just as a batsman imo, and Warne doesn't. So, if keeping to Warne isn't considered, I can't see why I would trade a batsman for Gilly.

Except again, Flower isn’t half the keeper Gilly is, and you’re going to have at least one spinner in Asia… picking Flower is very shortsighted.

 

[Tejretics]

My all-time XIs for countries among players who played at least a little bit at the highest level after the 1960s ended (but considering their whole careers) would be (and I’m also considering, in some cases, first-class performance):

Australia

1. Matthew Hayden
2. Usman Khawaja
3. Ricky Ponting
4. Steve Smith
5. Greg Chappell
6. Steve Waugh (c)
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
8. Pat Cummins
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath

West Indies

1. Gordon Greenidge
2. Desmond Haynes
3. Viv Richards
4. Brian Lara
5. Garry Sobers
6. Clive Lloyd (c)
7. Jeff Dujon (wk)
8. Malcolm Marshall
9. Michael Holding (close between him and Garner)
10. Lance Gibbs
11. Curtly Ambrose

South Africa (including first-class records during isolation)

1. Barry Richards
2. Graeme Smith (c)
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Graeme Pollock
5. AB de Villiers
6. Quinton de Kock (wk)
7. Mike Procter
8. Shaun Pollock (although I was tempted by Rabada)
9. Keshav Maharaj
10. Dale Steyn
11. Allan Donald

England

1. Alastair Cook
2. Geoff Boycott
3. David Gower
4. Joe Root
5. Kevin Pietersen
6. Ben Stokes (c)
7. Ian Botham
8. Alan Knott (wk)
9. Graeme Swann
10. Bob Willis
11. James Anderson

India

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Virender Sehwag
3. Rahul Dravid
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Virat Kohli (c)
6. Rishabh Pant (wk)
7. Kapil Dev
8. Ravichandran Ashwin
9. Anil Kumble
10. Mohammed Shami
11. Jasprit Bumrah

Pakistan

1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Younis Khan
4. Javed Miandad
5. Mohammad Yousuf
6. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
7. Imran Khan (c)
8. Wasim Akram
9. Abdul Qadir (torn between Qadir, Iqbal Qasim, Saqlain Mushtaq, and Yasir Shah)
10. Waqar Younis
11. Shoaib Akhtar

New Zealand

1. Glenn Turner
2. Mark Richardson
3. Kane Williamson (c)
4. Martin Crowe
5. Ross Taylor
6. BJ Watling (wk)
7. Chris Cairns
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Daniel Vettori
10. Shane Bond
11. Trent Boult

Sri Lanka

1. Sanath Jayasuriya
2. Dimuth Karunaratne
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Mahela Jayawardene (c)
5. Aravinda de Silva
6. Dinesh Chandimal (wk)
7. Angelo Mathews
8. Chaminda Vaas
9. Lasith Malinga
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Rangana Herath

 

[Coronis]

My all-time XIs for countries among players who played at least a little bit at the highest level after the 1960s ended (but considering their whole careers) would be (and I’m also considering, in some cases, first-class performance):

Australia

1. Matthew Hayden
2. Usman Khawaja
3. Ricky Ponting
4. Steve Smith
5. Greg Chappell
6. Steve Waugh (c)
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
8. Pat Cummins
9. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath

West Indies

1. Gordon Greenidge
2. Desmond Haynes
3. Viv Richards
4. Brian Lara
5. Garry Sobers
6. Clive Lloyd (c)
7. Jeff Dujon (wk)
8. Malcolm Marshall
9. Michael Holding (close between him and Garner)
10. Lance Gibbs
11. Curtly Ambrose

South Africa (including first-class records during isolation)

1. Barry Richards
2. Graeme Smith (c)
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Graeme Pollock
5. AB de Villiers
6. Quinton de Kock (wk)
7. Mike Procter
8. Shaun Pollock (although I was tempted by Rabada)
9. Keshav Maharaj
10. Dale Steyn
11. Allan Donald

England

1. Alastair Cook
2. Geoff Boycott
3. David Gower
4. Joe Root
5. Kevin Pietersen
6. Ben Stokes (c)
7. Ian Botham
8. Alan Knott (wk)
9. Graeme Swann
10. Bob Willis
11. James Anderson

India

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Virender Sehwag
3. Rahul Dravid
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Virat Kohli (c)
6. Rishabh Pant (wk)
7. Kapil Dev
8. Ravichandran Ashwin
9. Anil Kumble
10. Mohammed Shami
11. Jasprit Bumrah

Pakistan

1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Younis Khan
4. Javed Miandad
5. Mohammad Yousuf
6. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
7. Imran Khan (c)
8. Wasim Akram
9. Abdul Qadir (torn between Qadir, Iqbal Qasim, Saqlain Mushtaq, and Yasir Shah)
10. Waqar Younis
11. Shoaib Akhtar

New Zealand

1. Glenn Turner
2. Mark Richardson
3. Kane Williamson (c)
4. Martin Crowe
5. Ross Taylor
6. BJ Watling (wk)
7. Chris Cairns
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Daniel Vettori
10. Shane Bond
11. Trent Boult

Sri Lanka

1. Sanath Jayasuriya
2. Dimuth Karunaratne
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Mahela Jayawardene
5. Aravinda de Silva
6. Dinesh Chandimal (wk)
7. Angelo Mathews
8. Chaminda Vaas
9. Lasith Malinga
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Rangana Herath

Qadir sucks complete ass outside of Pakistan.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Qadir sucks complete ass outside of Pakistan.

Nonsense. Everybody knows that Qadir was a great spin bowler. This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"Abdul Qadir is widely regarded as a legendary leg spinner from the 1970s and 1980s"

and

"Yahoo! Cricket described Abdul Qadir as "a master of the leg-spin" who "mastered the googlies, the flippers, the leg-breaks and the topspins."[9] He is widely regarded as a top spin bowler of his generation and was included in Richie Benaud's Greatest XI shortlist of an imaginary cricket team from the best players available from all countries and eras. Former English captain Graham Gooch said that Abdul Qadir "was even finer than Shane Warne".[3]"

Let's see what HowSTAT has to say:



OMG.

 

[Coronis]

Nonsense. Everybody knows that Qadir was a great spin bowler. This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"Abdul Qadir is widely regarded as a legendary leg spinner from the 1970s and 1980s"

and

"Yahoo! Cricket described Abdul Qadir as "a master of the leg-spin" who "mastered the googlies, the flippers, the leg-breaks and the topspins."[9] He is widely regarded as a top spin bowler of his generation and was included in Richie Benaud's Greatest XI shortlist of an imaginary cricket team from the best players available from all countries and eras. Former English captain Graham Gooch said that Abdul Qadir "was even finer than Shane Warne".[3]"

Let's see what HowSTAT has to say:

View attachment 40452

OMG.

Wikipedia and Yahoo! Cricket, two top notch sources.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Wikipedia and Yahoo! Cricket, two top notch sources.

It's been my experience that Wikipedia is actually normally quite accurate about a lot of things. Their content here though is very misleading (not necessarily wrong). I didn't realise just how bad Qadir's away bowling record was.

 

[CricketFan90s]

It's been my experience that Wikipedia is actually normally quite accurate about a lot of things. Their content here though is very misleading (not necessarily wrong). I didn't realise just how bad Qadir's away bowling record was.

Some of the part time bowlers had better average than Qadir outside Pakistan.

 

[kyear2]

Actually the outswinger taking lots of bowled and lbw confuses me too. How? My guess is he got those wickets by luring a batsman to play for the swing and then using his Yorker. Or perhaps he bowled a line down leg, getting the batsman to open up the stumps on the offside. I would love to hear how he did this.
The thing with Lindwall is he is rated better than Lillee, or equal, by renowned writers who had seen both careers.

@peterhrt can you shed some light on this?

I have my opinions, but I defer to you.

Basically the question is, if Lindwall's primary mode of attack was his perfect outswinger, why so so few of his victims caught behind the wicket, but rather the majority caught or bowled?

 

[peterhrt]

@peterhrt can you shed some light on this?

I have my opinions, but I defer to you.

Basically the question is, if Lindwall's primary mode of attack was his perfect outswinger, why so so few of his victims caught behind the wicket, but rather the majority caught or bowled?

The story goes that Lindwall learned to bowl the inswinger while playing in the Lancashire League in 1952. His stock outswingers led to a spate of dropped slip catches and rejected lbw appeals. According to John Ringwood's biography: Lindwall had bowled the inswinger in the days before playing first-grade in Sydney, but had given it away in 1938. In all his first-class career and in Test matches he bowled outswingers and cut the occasional one back from the off. That was all he needed.

It doesn't explain all the bowled and lbw dismissals before 1952. His off-cutter could be devastating as Bill Edrich found at The Oval in 1948. Many batsmen were simply beaten for pace, and by his yorker which didn't always swing. There were few fast bowlers around just after the war.

 

[kyear2]

The story goes that Lindwall learned to bowl the inswinger while playing in the Lancashire League in 1952. His stock outswingers led to a spate of dropped slip catches and rejected lbw appeals. According to John Ringwood's biography: Lindwall had bowled the inswinger in the days before playing first-grade in Sydney, but had given it away in 1938. In all his first-class career and in Test matches he bowled outswingers and cut the occasional one back from the off. That was all he needed.

It doesn't explain all the bowled and lbw dismissals before 1952. His off-cutter could be devastating as Bill Edrich found at The Oval in 1948. Many batsmen were simply beaten for pace, and by his yorker which didn't always swing. There were few fast bowlers around just after the war.

I knew of the dropped catches issue, but figured it had to go deeper than that.

But I imagine outside of Miller, his situation was almost as bad as Wasim's?

 

[peterhrt]

I knew of the dropped catches issue, but figured it had to go deeper than that.

But I imagine outside of Miller, his situation was almost as bad as Wasim's?

Ian Johnson and Graeme Hole were good slip catchers. Sid Barnes was handy at short-leg, as later was Davidson. Australia picked their best wicket-keeper. Lindwall had a nasty bouncer up his sleeve that was difficult to pick with his low arm, but in general he bowled a full length and attacked the stumps.

 

[kyear2]

Ian Johnson and Graeme Hole were good slip catchers. Sid Barnes was handy at short-leg, as later was Davidson. Australia picked their best wicket-keeper. Lindwall had a nasty bouncer up his sleeve that was difficult to pick with his low arm, but in general he bowled a full length and attacked the stumps.

So why the spate of drops?

 

[peterhrt]

So why the spate of drops?

The drops being referred to were in the Lancashire League. The ball was travelling too fast for club cricketers to catch and Lindwall was being paid good money to take wickets.