Kapil/Jadeja vs Botham/Flintoff

[_00_deathscar]

Kohli was having a flash of brilliance there, he genuinely seemed exceptional there and some of his batting has been ridiculous in South Africa even from the standard of his very prime.

It's not gonna be his floor in Saffer though, for example in last ten years Rahul averages 27 in South Africa, and he is a better batsman than Jadeja as he showed this series itself, those pitches have been impossible to bat in and record some of the lowest scoring games in history of the sport.

By scoring 10 more runs than the #6/7? Yea he really showed him up there.
Don’t let KL’s flashes of occasional brilliance fool you. Short of some crazy later career resurgence, he’s largely been very average, which is shown up by his mid 30s average over whatever number of tests he’s played.

 

[Johan]

By scoring 10 more runs than the #6/7? Yea he really showed him up there.
Don’t let KL’s flashes of occasional brilliance fool you. Short of some crazy later career resurgence, he’s largely been very average, which is shown up by his mid 30s average over whatever number of tests he’s played.

His strength is his ability to play ridiculous knocks here and there but never found his consistency, Jadeja doesn't reslly play that style and the only guy in either team to consistently score in those serieses was Virat Kohli and I think Elgar? regardless, considering even De Villiers could barely hit 35 average in 2018, I can't see Jadeja scoring s lot.

 

[_00_deathscar]

because South Africa has been substantially harder to bat in than Australia lol.

again, Jadeja simply got to literally sit out his hardest (by far) challenge.

He was actually injured in the last series, he wasn’t dropped unlike previously.
But if your point is that it wasn’t deliberately missing it or something fair enough - he did miss that. I still don’t see how he suddenly averages a measly 15 or whatever you imagine when worse, or at least batsmen about as good as he has been in the last 5 years, were averaging 35-40+

 

[Johan]

He was actually injured in the last series, he wasn’t dropped unlike previously.
But if your point is that it wasn’t deliberately missing it or something fair enough - he did miss that. I still don’t see how he suddenly averages a measly 15 or whatever you imagine when worse, or at least batsmen about as good as he has been in the last 5 years, were averaging 35-40+

if he played all the Indian games (2018-2024) in South Africa then only one with 35+ is Kohli I think and you can't equate Kohli's performances to what Jadeja would achieve.

 

[_00_deathscar]

if he played all the Indian games (2018-2024) in South Africa then only one with 35+ is Kohli I think and you can't equate Kohli's performances to what Jadeja would achieve.

Pant as well, shade above (37)
Then again, Bhuvi Kumar averages 33 (albeit in 2 tests)
Vihari randomly score a 40* in one innings and averages 60 because of it
I see no reason why Jadeja, a far better bat, would struggle for 25 given enough tests to prove himself.

His strength is his ability to play ridiculous knocks here and there but never found his consistency, Jadeja doesn't reslly play that style and the only guy in either team to consistently score in those serieses was Virat Kohli and I think Elgar? regardless, considering even De Villiers could barely hit 35 average in 2018, I can't see Jadeja scoring s lot.

The problem with this approach is that sometimes strange players do strange things (like that one dude who averages 80 or whatever in Australia).

Based on statistics and what we do know, it’s fair to say Jadeja has been fairly consistent throughout conditions, positions and with different types of bowling and pitches - would you agree with that?

I don’t see why this consistent batsman who has been averaging 40+ since 2020 and 45 since 2018 or something is suddenly going to struggle to average 25 in South Africa.

I'm not saying he's going to absolutely blast it out of the park and get multiple centuries - but statistics suggest he'll probably average somewhere between 25-30 given that's on the low end of what he averages even in challenging conditions, generally speaking...probably a meaningful 40-50+ type score here and there.

For the record, here are some other players averaging 30+ with at least 3 tests played:
Ollie Pope (!)
Perera
Dom Sibley (!)
Ben Stokes
Chandimal
Tim Paine (!)
Dhananjaya de Silva
Zak Crawley
Joe Denley


Actually there's quite a few, and I've taken out the likes of Joe Root and Kohli etc.

 

[Randomfan]

We do have real sample size in different conditions. Any bastman should be judged based on actual performance as long as sample size is good enough in different conditions.

I won't make an asusmption about what Jaeja will do in SA one way or another.

 

[Johan]

Pant as well, shade above (37)
Then again, Bhuvi Kumar averages 33 (albeit in 2 tests) - I see no reason why Jadeja, a far better bat, would struggle for 25 given enough tests to prove himself.

Bhuvi issue is a given considering only two tests and he clearly punched well above his weight, Pant is a decisively better Batsman.

The problem with this approach is that sometimes strange players do strange things (like that one dude who averages 80 or whatever in Australia).

Based on statistics and what we do know, it’s fair to say Jadeja has been fairly consistent throughout conditions, positions and with different types of bowling and pitches - would you agree with that?

I don’t see why this consistent batsman who has been averaging 40+ since 2020 and 45 since 2018 or something is suddenly going to struggle to average 25 in South Africa.

I'm not saying he's going to absolutely blast it out of the park and get multiple centuries - but statistics suggest he'll probably average somewhere between 25-30 given that's on the low end of what he averages even in challenging conditions, generally speaking...probably a meaningful 40-50+ type score here and there.

Well South Africa is the type of place in recent memory where I can see someone dropping greatly and Jadeja doesn't inspire great confidence with his style of play in extremely fast conditions but regardless.

My point is, comparing Botham and Jadeja's away average with the bat in a vaccum is counter productive, especially since Ma was taking an issue with the record Botham had in West Indies, but that was largely a resultant of West Indies of the 80s being an abnormally difficult challenge none of the retro or Batsmen had to deal with. Jadeja doesn't play the hardest challenge of his time, the three innings he have played have not been indicative of good times for him.

so how come Botham gets to be downgraded drastically for record in one country with an unheard 4 ATG pacemen attack when Jadeja simply gets to sit out in the hardest country he can tour? is not making the playing XI so much better than failing?

 

[Johan]

For the record, here are some other players averaging 30+ with at least 3 tests played:
Ollie Pope (!)
Perera
Dom Sibley (!)
Ben Stokes
Chandimal
Tim Paine (!)
Dhananjaya de Silva
Zak Crawley
Joe Denley.

also, they don't produce the same type of pitches for India as they do for others.

 

[Rob Wesley]

3, and warming the bench isn't the flex you think it is.

He was injured in a 3 test series there which Ashwin played and contributed with 30s and 40s. Those pitches had nothing for spinners.

 

[Johan]

He was injured in a 3 test series there which Ashwin played and contributed with 30s and 40s. Those pitches had nothing for spinners.

Crazy to think Botham would've been rated higher if he got injured before 1985-86 West Indies tour and just missed the entire series

 

[_00_deathscar]

so how come Botham gets to be downgraded drastically for record in one country with an unheard 4 ATG pacemen attack when Jadeja simply gets to sit out in the hardest country he can tour? is not making the playing XI so much better than failing?

Yea the whole argument is a whole other thing that I won't get into (Botham > Jadeja, especially for peak for sure - and his peak basically was his career really...) but conjecture about Jadeja's potential performance in South Africa is neither here nor there.

And while the pitches may have been some of the toughest and we've never actually won a series there, South Africa isn't India's biggest challenge or the tours Jadeja will be judged by. That will always be Australia first.

 

[subshakerz]

Especially away from home (and even at home to be honest), I have long been clamouring for Jadeja to bat 6.

How long

 

[subshakerz]

Yea the whole argument is a whole other thing that I won't get into (Botham > Jadeja, especially for peak for sure - and his peak basically was his career really...) but conjecture about Jadeja's potential performance in South Africa is neither here nor there.

And while the pitches may have been some of the toughest and we've never actually won a series there, South Africa isn't India's biggest challenge or the tours Jadeja will be judged by. That will always be Australia first.

SA is definitely the biggest challenge for bats in this era and it's convenient that we rate Jadeja who gets opted out to play while Botham is downgraded for WI