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Tell me how a Kane Williamson is an ATG?

Thala_0710

International Captain
You wanna know THE actual criteria for determining greatness? Winning games for your country. Joe Root's gleaming SENAI away-record hasn't done a thing to prevent England from losing 5 separate test series in Bangladesh, UAE, Pakistan and the West Indies over the past decade. KW's stats padding has had a massive influence on NZ's success at the same venues during the same period.

Also, dismissing consistently outstanding performances vs very strong SA and English bowling attacks because 'Oh home runs don't count'? FFS, mate, New Zealand bowling conditions are tailor made for guys like Steyn, Anderson, Rabada, Broad, Morkel etc etc.
Winning games for your country is obviously very important. Mohammad Nabi, Dipendra Airee etc have many many games for their nations, probably more than Smith has for Australia. Are they ATGs? No. Are they extremely important to their team? Yes.
Opposition matters, conditions matter, ofc they do. Pretending they don't is far from reality. Afg, Nep have faced much weaker teams relative to what Kw has faced. But as you said, it's very important to them too to beat the Zimbabwe, Uae etc of this world.
I'm not saying runs against pak, wi etc don't matter. They do, but they matter less, as compared to the best teams. Williamson is a very good bat, great at home. But that's not enough for ATG status imo. ATG status isn't just decided by how important you are to the team, it's decided more on quality. Performing away against the very best has always been the metric no 1 to judge that. Williamson just hasn't done enough imo.
Maybe I have too high a bar for ATGs. I don't consider Abd, Kohli, Younis ATGs either whom I consider better than KW. That's just it.
 

Fuller Pilch

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Why wasn't kw playing in zim
Not contracted to NZ. Accepted a contract to play county cricket and the 100.

We had an opportunity to pick some younger top 7 batting options (2 or 3 of whom hopefully tour Oz next year), but unfortunately didn't take it.
 

Thala_0710

International Captain
Winning games for your country is obviously very important. Mohammad Nabi, Dipendra Airee etc have many many games for their nations, probably more than Smith has for Australia. Are they ATGs? No. Are they extremely important to their team? Yes.
Opposition matters, conditions matter, ofc they do. Pretending they don't is far from reality. Afg, Nep have faced much weaker teams relative to what Kw has faced. But as you said, it's very important to them too to beat the Zimbabwe, Uae etc of this world.
I'm not saying runs against pak, wi etc don't matter. They do, but they matter less, as compared to the best teams. Williamson is a very good bat, great at home. But that's not enough for ATG status imo. ATG status isn't just decided by how important you are to the team, it's decided more on quality. Performing away against the very best has always been the metric no 1 to judge that. Williamson just hasn't done enough imo.
Maybe I have too high a bar for ATGs. I don't consider Abd, Kohli, Younis ATGs either whom I consider better than KW. That's just it.
For reference, I don't have Jadeja or Ashwin as ATGs either. There's no hate for KW specifically.
 

Gob

International Coach
Not contracted to NZ. Accepted a contract to play county cricket and the 100.

We had an opportunity to pick some younger top 7 batting options (2 or 3 of whom hopefully tour Oz next year), but unfortunately didn't take it.
How long and how often will he play for nz
 

Fuller Pilch

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How long and how often will he play for nz
Hasn't been announced. Will be available for most test series I'd imagine. I expect he'll be targeting 2026 - 27 which is a big year for NZ (1 test in Ireland, 3 in England, 2 at home v India, 4 in Australia, 2 at home v SL, 2 away v Pakistan), so 16 tests in 8-9 months and the 2027 ODI WC in SA. He hasn't retired from T20is but wouldn't make our strongest XI, so I hope we don't pick him.


The 2027 WC is Oct/Nov 2027 by which stage he'd be 37 and a good time to finish.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Williamson is both an undoubtedly great player but also has some pretty huge holes in his record that most all time greats don't. The scheduling luck is only partly true imo, he's had quite a few disappointing tours to the better teams in his peak years and when it comes to rating him among the very best this will obviously matter. It's likely his away record would be better if he'd gotten more chances, but it's still a pretty generous benefit of doubt to give anyone.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
@Thala_0710

I don't know if you're trolling or not but this is just plain stupidity. When you're discussing how good someone is a player of spin, it doesn't matter how well you're doing against spin specifically?? So you're basically saying if one's averaging is reducing in Asia due to getting out to pace, he is a worse player of spin. Like that's obviously stupid. If you want to say that Williamson is better in home conditions overall than those two then yeah it makes sense. Not vs spin or pace specifically.
The problem of your formula is it doesn't take team composition into account, when a Batsman is playing a great innings the probability of their dismissal to a pacer is exponentially higher because teams come with 4 pacers and 1 spinner, and sometimes all seamers. If a Batsman is to be dismissed by a mistake after making a big hundred against a strong unit, the mistake has a 4/5 probability of coming against a paceman, on top the number of high quality pacers has been exponentially higher than high quality spinners since the 1980s, so majority of dismissals naturally come against them, just a higher proportion of them and generally higher quality. You can't just take a dude's pace average and then compare it to a dude's spin average. ****ing, HARRY BROOK AVERAGES HIGHER AGAINST SPIN THAN KANE DOES AGAINST PACE BALL BY BALL, It might as well just be impossible to directly compare spin and pace averages.

Refer to the old wisdom, and you go by credentials and the facts are as follows.

1. Kane has averaged 72 in New Zealand since turning 23 year old, Mahela averaged 57 in Sri Lanka, Sehwag averaged 54 in India.

2. Sehwag has away credentials against spin in Sri Lanka, Kane doesn't have away credentials against pace, Mahela doesn't have away credentials against spin.
3. Sehwag never made a hundred in the second half of a Test match in Asia and the average becomes 30, Kane dominates in the first half that's generally bowler dominant with a 65 batting average and then 84.

He doesn't. He's great at home, ofc he is. Sometimes they do produce tough pitches at home like you said, and he has done well. But he hasn't dominated consistently on them, especially away. That's an enormous exaggeration.
Mate, his 251 came against an all pace attack on such a green pitch that you couldn't even tell it from the outfield! he hasn't gotten opportunities overseas, in what he has gotten he has done well in Australia and failed in England but it's unquestionable that Kane dominates on all kinds of spicy pitches at home, same way Sehwag and Mahela dominated on turners and got credit for it.

I don't think Williamson is their equal. He's better than them. But he is in the same mould of player as them, and no it's not hate. Just because someone is putting up proper arguments against someone, doesn't make them a hater. You're better than this luffy, come on.
The comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but It's generally just annoying that you're pretending 2 and 3 matches in India and South Africa respectively define him when he has so, so much more.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Williamson is both an undoubtedly great player but also has some pretty huge holes in his record that most all time greats don't. The scheduling luck is only partly true imo, he's had quite a few disappointing tours to the better teams in his peak years and when it comes to rating him among the very best this will obviously matter. It's likely his away record would be better if he'd gotten more chances, but it's still a pretty generous benefit of doubt to give anyone.
This is a fair take, I think most that are familiar with Williamson know that he doesn't have massive technical flaws (his ODI record in England/India/SA is very good) but that doesn't mean he is the perfect batsman everywhere. It's a record that is exaggerated as being flimsy by detractors but would be fair to describe as disappointing even by his supporters.
 

Al Salvador

School Boy/Girl Captain
I don't know if you're trolling or not but this is just plain stupidity. When you're discussing how good someone is a player of spin, it doesn't matter how well you're doing against spin specifically?? So you're basically saying if one's averaging is reducing in Asia due to getting out to pace, he is a worse player of spin. Like that's obviously stupid. If you want to say that Williamson is better in home conditions overall than those two then yeah it makes sense. Not vs spin or pace specifically.

He doesn't. He's great at home, ofc he is. Sometimes they do produce tough pitches at home like you said, and he has done well. But he hasn't dominated consistently on them, especially away. That's an enormous exaggeration.

I don't think Williamson is their equal. He's better than them. But he is in the same mould of player as them, and no it's not hate. Just because someone is putting up proper arguments against someone, doesn't make them a hater. You're better than this luffy, come on.
don't entirely agree with Luffy, and I don't rate Williamson any differently than you do, but this constant downplaying of Williamson by two posters especially Majestic is nauseating and verging on tribalism. Majestic guy spends all his time bringing down the players he doesn't like. The same argument about the away record against big teams. we're all aware of that. There's no need to be obsessed with it all the time. It gets tiring after a point.

Obviously, you don't do that, but the general point is that Majestic is constantly trying to bring Williamson down. So Luffy's reaction is somewhat understandable. This Majestic guy is so obsessed with the "big team away" filter that he even dismisses genuinely great performances against so-called weaker teams, even when the team was on the verge of an embarrassing defeat. (I remember him dismissing Stokes' ATG performance in Chattogram in 2016.)
 
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Thala_0710

International Captain
@Thala_0710



The problem of your formula is it doesn't take team composition into account, when a Batsman is playing a great innings the probability of their dismissal to a pacer is exponentially higher because teams come with 4 pacers and 1 spinner, and sometimes all seamers. If a Batsman is to be dismissed by a mistake after making a big hundred against a strong unit, the mistake has a 4/5 probability of coming against a paceman, on top the number of high quality pacers has been exponentially higher than high quality spinners since the 1980s, so majority of dismissals naturally come against them, just a higher proportion of them and generally higher quality. You can't just take a dude's pace average and then compare it to a dude's spin average. ****ing, HARRY BROOK AVERAGES HIGHER AGAINST SPIN THAN KANE DOES AGAINST PACE BALL BY BALL, It might as well just be impossible to directly compare spin and pace averages.
I'm not comparing them directly. It's just that they are not that close either for all of this to matter, and it's still better than looking at overall record imo, because then you're factoring in performances vs pace for Mahela and Sehwag, or spin for Kw.
@Thala_0710

2. Sehwag has away credentials against spin in Sri Lanka, Kane doesn't have away credentials against pace, Mahela doesn't have away credentials against spin.
3. Sehwag never made a hundred in the second half of a Test match in Asia and the average becomes 30, Kane dominates in the first half that's generally bowler dominant with a 65 batting average and then 84.


Mate, his 251 came against an all pace attack on such a green pitch that you couldn't even tell it from the outfield! he hasn't gotten opportunities overseas, in what he has gotten he has done well in Australia and failed in England but it's unquestionable that Kane dominates on all kinds of spicy pitches at home, same way Sehwag and Mahela dominated on turners and got credit for it
Mahela has away credentials against spin in India though? And around the world in general, more so even than Viru.
And lastly, yeah that was a great innings. But he hasn't dominated on tough wickets consistently around the world. He has done consistently well at home, wickets aren't consistently tough in Nz though. They have been tough, they have been quite flat as well. A mix of both really.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
@Thala_0710

I'm not comparing them directly. It's just that they are not that close either for all of this to matter, and it's still better than looking at overall record imo, because then you're factoring in performances vs pace for Mahela and Sehwag, or spin for Kw.
That's why I'm referencing credentials over head to head, as I explained, team composition and gap between pace quality and spin quality makes a comparison like that impossible. I mean c'mon, Harry Brook averages higher against spin than he does against pace, or Kane does against pace, does anyone rate Brook's spin play highly? Imo, credentials and achievements are the best way to go, and Kane in pace dom conditions have achieved just so much more than other two in their criterias

Mahela has away credentials against spin in India though? And around the world in general, more so even than Viru.
And lastly, yeah that was a great innings. But he hasn't dominated on tough wickets consistently around the world.
Circles back to original point, barely any play in South Africa, good in Australia and West Indies and mid in England, from a pace perspective.

He has done consistently well at home, wickets aren't consistently tough in Nz though. They have been tough, they have been quite flat as well. A mix of both really
that's fine, Sehwag and Mahela also had lots of roads at home, loads and loads and loads of roads at home. None of them have Peter May type consistent hellholes at home.
 

Majestic

State 12th Man
For reference, I don't have Jadeja or Ashwin as ATGs either. There's no hate for KW specifically.
If you point out lack of performance of KW, some are so overly sensitive and obsessive that they will start attacking you and calling it hate.

I don’t get why should I value knocks against mid and lower tier teams more than knocks v top tier teams. And for this reason, no matter how much anyone tries and calls some of his flat tracks knocks as some kind of great knocks, it won’t change the reality.

A performance vs top team >> performance vs mid and low tier teams and away performance >> home performance. Once he performs vs top teams and away from home, I will start rating him but till then laughable claims like Wagner is GOAT and Yasir is GOAT and UAE pitches are turners from day 1 and what not should be taken with a pinch of salt.

This is not my thread and I will leave with this.
 

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