Viv vs hutton

[kyear2]

Indeed . Remember that he also believes ,unlike most of us, that :

1) The gap between Marshall/McGrath and other ATG pacers is quite significant. But Viv doing well vs those same significantly inferior ATG pacers is somehow solid evidence of him being the GOAT ATG pace bowler destroyer.

2) He thinks that someone like Hadlee is not a top tier pace bowler like those two because he was much more dangerous in NZ. But then Viv having a terrible record vs hadlee in games in nz (avg 19 in 3 games ) is never brought up. It's enough that Viv scored well vs inferior ATG hadlee in one series at home to conclude that he dominated him.

Not even getting into how he pooh-poohs Gavaskar's record vs the by-his-own-definition significantly better bowler Marshall by giving excuses like either Marshall wasn't at his peak or the pitch Gavaskar made runs vs him was flat etc.

The whole line of posting is an utter joke. Embarassed that I even try to engage with him in good faith at this point.

You're so full of ****, and pretensive and self righteous as hell with it.

Never said it's significant, but do believe they've separated themselves somewhat from the other top tier pacers. And have explained why repeatedly. It's not even an extreme position at this point as those are the first two names for many now for AT XIs or when discussing who was the best. It's those two, Barnes and Bumrah making a case to join the discussion.

Do I think Hadlee is legitimately, or has been discussed outside of this forum in the GOAT debate, no. Very arguably the 3rd best pacer, yes. It's not GOAT or garbage. And you know this.

I also didn't know that we were basing Viv's pace bowling bona fides vs Hadlee alone.

No one faced, scored against, or dominated pace bowlers on all types of surfaces like Viv did. Fast, bouncing or seaming, not only did he score but at an unprecedented scoring rate. You're free to tell me who else did.

Ok, now we're discussing Sunny? When did I say anything about peak? And I hope we're not talking about the scrub runs Sunny scored in '78 during WSC, because if you're including that you're just desperate for talking points at this time.

I rate Sunny as highly as most here, but was he a demolisher of fast bowling on helpful tracks? No, and no one thinks that. Is he right behind Hobbs and Hutton and a elite ATG batsman, yes. But you delve so deeply into tribalism and personal animosity that you see everything in black and white.

And you've never engaged in good faith, you and your cohorts personally dislike me based purely on my takes with regards to Imran and apparently recently Sunny and Kapil.

Sunny was a great batsman, but contrary to perception today he wasn't rated as highly during his career. He was seen as many as a fair weather batsman and rated behind Barry for that part of the era, you've even made references to you father making similar points... Holding, Lillee and others made similar points. I've also said that Greenidge was rated almost on par before his precipitous decline, and for those who watched them, that's also true. His decline does remove him from that class however, and that's easily acknowledged as well. I wanted to understand why (re Sunny) and it because evident as to why. Doesn't mean I don't rate him as a top 10 batsman and a brilliant opener.

It's very similar to Wasim, just in the other direction.

I make no apologies for my takes on Imran. He was a brilliant bowler. He also took ball tampering and cheating to ridiculous extremes and have been called out by even teammates for it. But he's also an ATG. You think he's on par with Marshall / McGrath / Steyn / Hadlee / Ambrose etc, I don't. Actually most here don't either. But somehow I'm the one who catches you ire.

So save you self righteous pretence for someone else.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wonder whether @OverratedSanity has the heart to respond to this slop....

 

[kyear2]

Viv wasnt an opener.

And yes defending and survival is important for an opener but not having an extra gear to dominate after survival is a detriment.

Unless you are arguing Hutton was perfect as a bat.

That's the thing, it's not the s/r alone that's an issue, it's the inability to change gears or accelerate as the situation dictates. Allow bowlers to set the tone or bowl themselves into a rhythm, captain to stick to fields.

Yes Hutton was an ATG, a BAB candidate and an opener in the very highest of tiers.

He also had that inability to dominate when required. That's not, nor can it be interpreted as a positive.

 

[Coronis]

You're so full of ****, and pretensive and self righteous as hell with it.

Never said it's significant, but do believe they've separated themselves somewhat from the other top tier pacers. And have explained why repeatedly. It's not even an extreme position at this point as those are the first two names for many now for AT XIs or when discussing who was the best. It's those two, Barnes and Bumrah making a case to join the discussion.

Do I think Hadlee is legitimately, or has been discussed outside of this forum in the GOAT debate, no. Very arguably the 3rd best pacer, yes. It's not GOAT or garbage. And you know this.

I also didn't know that we were basing Viv's pace bowling bona fides vs Hadlee alone.

No one faced, scored against, or dominated pace bowlers on all types of surfaces like Viv did. Fast, bouncing or seaming, not only did he score but at an unprecedented scoring rate. You're free to tell me who else did.

Ok, now we're discussing Sunny? When did I say anything about peak? And I hope we're not talking about the scrub runs Sunny scored in '78 during WSC, because if you're including that you're just desperate for talking points at this time.

I rate Sunny as highly as most here, but was he a demolisher of fast bowling on helpful tracks? No, and no one thinks that. Is he right behind Hobbs and Hutton and a elite ATG batsman, yes. But you delve so deeply into tribalism and personal animosity that you see everything in black and white.

And you've never engaged in good faith, you and your cohorts personally dislike me based purely on my takes with regards to Imran and apparently recently Sunny and Kapil.

Sunny was a great batsman, but contrary to perception today he wasn't rated as highly during his career. He was seen as many as a fair weather batsman and rated behind Barry for that part of the era, you've even made references to you father making similar points... Holding, Lillee and others made similar points. I've also said that Greenidge was rated almost on par before his precipitous decline, and for those who watched them, that's also true. His decline does remove him from that class however, and that's easily acknowledged as well. I wanted to understand why (re Sunny) and it because evident as to why. Doesn't mean I don't rate him as a top 10 batsman and a brilliant opener.

It's very similar to Wasim, just in the other direction.

I make no apologies for my takes on Imran. He was a brilliant bowler. He also took ball tampering and cheating to ridiculous extremes and have been called out by even teammates for it. But he's also an ATG. You think he's on par with Marshall / McGrath / Steyn / Hadlee / Ambrose etc, I don't. Actually most here don't either. But somehow I'm the one who catches you ire.

So save you self righteous pretence for someone else.

I did not see this coming

 

[kyear2]

Wonder whether @OverratedSanity has the heart to respond to this slop....

It's slop because you disagree or because you know you have your little gang to support you?

This place really can be the pits.

 

[Coronis]

That's the thing, it's not the s/r alone that's an issue, it's the inability to change gears or accelerate as the situation dictates. Allow bowlers to set the tone or bowl themselves into a rhythm, captain to stick to fields.

Yes Hutton was an ATG, a BAB candidate and an opener in the very highest of tiers.

He also had that inability to dominate when required. That's not, nor can it be interpreted as a positive.

I’m not sure that’s ever been a requirement in test cricket

 

[Coronis]

It's slop because you disagree or because you know you have your little gang to support you?

This place really can be the pits.

ooh now there’s the victim mentality vs OS and his esteemed cronies

 

[kyear2]

Did Viv had that Gear 1 though? His consistency points otherwise

He very much did, and I have pointed out to you and others, innings where he shut down to secure draws or stem collapses.

 

[kyear2]

Two recent books, by David Woodhouse and Richard Whitehead, covering English tours to West Indies and Australia during the mid-1950s, offer a good analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of Hutton both as batsman and captain. His philosophy was formed in the Yorkshire dressing room of the 1930s and never changed. Treat the game as seriously as you would a real battle. Don't take risks. Give opponents nothing. Research everything cricket-related in minute detail: form, pitches, character of teammates and opponents, etc. Ignore anything not directly affecting the result of matches. Coming up against Bradman reinforced those beliefs, as the Australian appeared to share them.

Hutton had a superb defensive batting technique, perhaps as sound as anyone's. With a classical style he always looked good. He read a pitch better than others. When captain his more controversial selections usually proved justified.

But he was a deeply shy man and suffered acutely from stress. Laker said he was the biggest worrier he ever met. Before the third Test in Melbourne on New Year's Eve 1954 Hutton suffered a nervous breakdown and announced he was not playing. Ironically he was persuaded to change his mind by three men whose off-field excesses he despised as unprofessional: Compton, Edrich and Evans.

Hutton's inter-personal skills were often poor. On the way out to Australia in 1954 he told Peter Loader he would not be playing in any of the Tests then ignored him for the rest of the trip. Reluctant to assert himself with the bat, he stifled others' attacking instincts by ordering them to play in the same over-cautious manner.

When he retired Hutton was generally considered the fourth greatest English batsman after Grace, Hobbs and Hammond. Decades later some began to place him above Hammond, then Grace. Very few critics rated him as highly as Viv Richards whose capacity for altering the course of a match in a single session was on another level entirely. When the all-time World XIs of 100 ex-Test players (and one umpire) were published in 2010, Richards was chosen in 65 teams, Hutton in 21.

Eloquent as always.

Hutton was excellent, it can also be said however he was (self) limited and perhaps I overly defensive, and that too was exhibited in his captaincy and from your comments how he wanted his teammates to bat.

It's also had a negative impact on the game of cricket in general and it was left to players of latter eras to try to "save the game", as was credited to Worrell and Benaud in that series in the 60's.

This is quite possibly only my take, but Sutcliffe (primarily here), Barrington and to an admittedly lesser extent Hutton, have had their ratings elevated decades after they played based purely on stats and not on impact when they played.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah I don't think Viv lacked it at all. I consider the ability to face a lot of deliveries consistently to be a positive for a top order bat though. In most small innings (sub 50 or so), I'd rather the batsman stayed out there for a longer duration of time. It adds up and makes things easier for the middle order batsmen to come in a much more obvious way than a quickfire 40 would. Generally, as scores get higher and/or as you get lower down the order, quick become valuable when conditions become easier to bat in and you need to cash in.

 

[kyear2]

I’m not sure that’s ever been a requirement in test cricket

When has it not been. There's always match situations that requires the ability to add impetus to an innings.

Not having it, can't be seen as a positive no matter how one tries to spin it.

 

[subshakerz]

Did Viv had that Gear 1 though? His consistency points otherwise

His overall record is Tendulkar basically without minnows except that much longevity.

 

[subshakerz]

I’m not sure that’s ever been a requirement in test cricket

But to be in the BAB category it matters

 

[Bolo.]

He very much did, and I have pointed out to you and others, innings where he shut down to secure draws or stem collapses.

It's not about being able to do it occasionally, it's about being able to do it consistently. Everyone has a limited number of innings out of character. The top 10 of fastest test 50s has Misbah 1, Kallis 3, Steyn 8. Chanders had the 3rd fastest test hundred.

You've got someone like Border from Viv's era who faced 20? 30? extra balls per dismissal, while having a rougher ride. That's demonstrating consistent sticking power. FTR I rate would rate Viv much lower if he scored at Border's pace playing for WI. Not sure how my estimation of Border would change if he scored at Viv's pace playing for Aus, but probably down.

 

[Bolo.]

But to be in the BAB category it matters

Does this also apply to bats who couldn't stick around?

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I don't think Viv lacked it at all. I consider the ability to face a lot of deliveries consistently to be a positive for a top order bat though. In most small innings (sub 50 or so), I'd rather the batsman stayed out there for a longer duration of time. It adds up and makes things easier for the middle order batsmen to come in a much more obvious way than a quickfire 40 would. Generally, as scores get higher and/or as you get lower down the order, quick become valuable when conditions become easier to bat in and you need to cash in.

There's always a balance. You still need a defensive game for middle order and you still need an aggressive capacity for an opener.

I will say it's generally easier for an aggressive bat to grind it out than a defensive bat to have to counterattack.

I don't critique Gavaskar the same way I do Hutton because Gavsaskar was known to accelerate often once settled somewhat.

 

[kyear2]

It's not about being able to do it occasionally, it's about being able to do it consistently. Everyone has a limited number of innings out of character. The top 10 of fastest test 50s has Misbah 1, Kallis 3, Steyn 8. Chanders had the 3rd fastest test hundred.

You've got someone like Border from Viv's era who faced 20? 30? extra balls per dismissal, while having a rougher ride. That's demonstrating consistent sticking power. FTR I rate would rate Viv much lower if he scored at Border's pace playing for WI. Not sure how my estimation of Border would change if he scored at Viv's pace playing for Aus, but probably down.

Very simple question.

Is it more difficult to bat at Hutton's pace or Viv.

Which requires more skill.

Batsmen like Waugh sr and Border had to cut shots out of their game to succeed. It's easier to slow down and reduce chances.

 

[subshakerz]

Does this also apply to bats who couldn't stick around?

Sure to the extent it affects overall output.

I think it was an issue for Viv that he lacked patience which cost him more tons, though his overall output has no issues.

 

[kyear2]

Does this also apply to bats who couldn't stick around?

Who couldn't stick around?

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's slop because you disagree or because you know you have your little gang to support you?

This place really can be the pits.

It's slop because it's utterly garbage slop lol