Better Batsman - Jadeja or Imran?

[trundler]

Neither is Botham with the bat but both are more productive than average replacement value for a #6/7 which is pretty great for a frontline bowler. Nobody thinks either is as good as Atherton with the bat so the whole thing about either being overrated with the bat is fighting a phantom.

 

[subshakerz]

more than Imran

but if I have to name a few, a century on a first day pitch in England where India was 33/3

a 68 that out India in a position to win a match at Lords in 2014

A 56 when India was in deep trouble at Trent Bridge

just off the top of my head. Whatever it is it’s more important innings abroad than Imran has had in just over the half theoverseas tests

I would guess it is not more.

 

[_00_deathscar]

more than Imran

but if I have to name a few, a century on a first day pitch in England where India was 33/3

a 68 that out India in a position to win a match at Lords in 2014

A 56 when India was in deep trouble at Trent Bridge

just off the top of my head. Whatever it is it’s more important innings abroad than Imran has had in just over the half theoverseas tests

Supporting role in the MCG test too helping rescue India in a crucial test that then led to a series win

 

[kyear2]

Neither is Botham with the bat but both are more productive than average replacement value for a #6/7 which is pretty great for a frontline bowler. Nobody thinks either is as good as Atherton with the bat so the whole thing about either being overrated with the bat is fighting a phantom.

I would agree with the bolded bit for the most part, though would say more no. 7 than 6, but that's quibbling. But all still excellent for a front line bowler.

I don't think anyone's comparing them to Atherton, think he just meant that the averages are a bit soft and the actual value is a touch below that.

 

[ma1978]

I would guess it is not more.

can you name even consequential inning Imran played outside ofPakistan (or in Oakistan for that matter).

And don’t bring up some pointless century against India on a road.

 

[kyear2]

can you name even consequential inning Imran played outside ofPakistan (or in Oakistan for that matter).

And don’t bring up some pointless century against India on a road.

There was a 3rd innings hundred against (I think) the WI, where he saved the game and pulled out a draw. Think it was him and Wasim that pulled it off.

I think when I went through his 100's and high 50's I found two of them. I have them listed somewhere in a thread.

 

[kyear2]

I was trying to remember the thread, but I was making the argument that Kallis's or Ponting's catching was more impactful in wins that Pollock's / Imran's / Hadlee's batting, can't recall which.

 

[ma1978]

There was a 3rd innings hundred against (I think) the WI, where he saved the game and pulled out a draw. Think it was him and Wasim that pulled it off.

I think when I went through his 100's and high 50's I found two of them. I have them listed somewhere in a thread.

at home though. I don’t care but subz does if he bothered to apply his weird views Consistebtly

the fact that you have to think says it all

 

[subshakerz]

can you name even consequential inning Imran played outside ofPakistan (or in Oakistan for that matter).

And don’t bring up some pointless century against India on a road.

Let's see:

There is a 136 in Adelaide that saved a game with Wasim in 1990. And twin fifties against Lillee in 85 that also helped save a game.

Then there was his first hundred against the WI quartet in Pakistan that saved the game. A crucial fifty in 1986 and another last innings fifty against them in 1990 that saved a game.

Played several important knocks in the 82 England tour but Pakistan couldn't win.

Those are what I can recall off the top of my head.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think when I went through his 100's and high 50's I found two of them. I have them listed somewhere in a thread.

IIRC that was the time you described a hundred Imran made in a drawn test vs India that took Pakistan from 250-7 to 450 as "downhill skiing" and were rightly laughed at.

 

[OverratedSanity]

However, when it comes to overseas batting I think I agree with @ma1978 that Jadeja is maybe slightly better. He has played a lot of really excellent knocks that @subshakerz ignores or doesn't know about.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Played several important knocks in the 82 England tour but Pakistan couldn't win.

Yes, these two seem like seriously heroic efforts

ENG vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Birmingham, July 29 - August 01, 1982

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, ENG vs PAK, Pakistan tour of England 1982 at Edgbaston, Birmingham dated July 29 - August 01, 1982.

www.espncricinfo.com

ENG vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Leeds, August 26 - 31, 1982

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, ENG vs PAK, Pakistan tour of England 1982 at Headingley, Leeds dated August 26 - 31, 1982.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[ataraxia]

Yes, these two seem like seriously heroic efforts

ENG vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Birmingham, July 29 - August 01, 1982

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, ENG vs PAK, Pakistan tour of England 1982 at Edgbaston, Birmingham dated July 29 - August 01, 1982.

www.espncricinfo.com

ENG vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Leeds, August 26 - 31, 1982

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, ENG vs PAK, Pakistan tour of England 1982 at Headingley, Leeds dated August 26 - 31, 1982.

www.espncricinfo.com

F R A U D
R
A
U
D

Fraud.

 

[ataraxia]

Yeah have to agree with others that this is pretty near a dead heat, with Botham coming in a relatively distant third. Both have had peaks averaging near 50, though in terms of how I'd rate them as all-rounders Jadeja would probably be a better bat, given his batting and bowling peaks coincide while Imran's don't coincide as nicely (but how the **** was Imran's bowling tail-off followed by "oh hehe I guess I'll become a 39yo averaging 62 with bat then"?).

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah have to agree with others that this is pretty near a dead heat, with Botham coming in a relatively distant third. Both have had peaks averaging near 50, though in terms of how I'd rate them as all-rounders Jadeja would probably be a better bat, given his batting and bowling peaks coincide while Imran's don't coincide as nicely (but how the **** was Imran's bowling tail-off followed by "oh hehe I guess I'll become a 39yo averaging 62 with bat then"?).

If we are talking just batting in isolation, then their bowling shouldnt be factored in the equation, no?

 

[subshakerz]

However, when it comes to overseas batting I think I agree with @ma1978 that Jadeja is maybe slightly better. He has played a lot of really excellent knocks that @subshakerz ignores or doesn't know about.

No, I am willing to hear them out. I know mostly of his England stuff. But my contention is always that Jadeja doesnt have a big enough sample except for England to really compare.

I rate Jadeja at home better than him overseas at this point.

 

[ataraxia]

If we are talking just batting in isolation, then their bowling shouldnt be factored in the equation, no?

I agree; I was pointing out how rating Imran and Jadeja as batters and rating their batting in the context of them being all-rounders are in this instance two separate things.

 

[OverratedSanity]

No, I am willing to hear them out. I know mostly of his England stuff. But my contention is always that Jadeja doesnt have a big enough sample except for England to really compare.

- A great stand with Rahane in difficult conditions vs a great attack. This partnership turned the series around for India. (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...alia-vs-india-2nd-test-1223870/full-scorecard)

- Excellent fifty in WI to take India from 180 odd for 7 to a good score. It would be unfair to dismiss this because it's against WI. WI suck because of their batting. Their pace attack in home conditions with Roach/Gabriel/Holder has genuinely been quite good. (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...dies-vs-india-1st-test-1188628/full-scorecard)

Four fantastic innings in England (all against Anderson/Broad):

- Match winning lower order partnership with Bhuvi in an amazing win (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...india-2nd-investec-test-667713/full-scorecard)

- Took India from 160-6 to almost 300 to keep the game alive (though India eventually lost) (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-5th-test-1119553/full-scorecard)

- This fifty gave India a big lead which they probably would've converted into a win if not for rain (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-1st-test-1239543/full-scorecard)

- A great hundred from 98-5 on day 1 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-5th-test-1320741/full-scorecard). I think I'd rate this innings over any of Imran's overseas efforts.

Can make a strong argument for Imran>Jadeja too, but I feel like dismissing Jadeja because he's not done enough overseas here is not fair at all. I don't really think you'll be able to pick out more than 6-7 knocks for Imran too.

 

[subshakerz]

- A great stand with Rahane in difficult conditions vs a great attack. This partnership genuinely turned the series around for India. (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...alia-vs-india-2nd-test-1223870/full-scorecard)

- Excellent fifty in WI to take India from 180 odd for 7 to a good score. It would be unfair to dismiss this because it's against WI. WI suck because of their batting. Their pace attack in home conditions with Roach/Gabriel/Holder has genuinely been quite good. (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...dies-vs-india-1st-test-1188628/full-scorecard)

Four fantastic innings in England (all against Anderson/Broad):

- Match winning lower order partnership with Bhuvi in an amazing win (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...india-2nd-investec-test-667713/full-scorecard)

- Took India from 160-6 to almost 300 to keep the game alive (though India eventually lost) (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-5th-test-1119553/full-scorecard)

- This fifty gave India a big lead which they probably would've converted into a win if not for rain (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-1st-test-1239543/full-scorecard)

- A great hundred from 98-5 on day 1 (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...land-vs-india-5th-test-1320741/full-scorecard). I think I'd rate this innings over any of Imran's overseas efforts.

Can make a strong argument for Imran>Jadeja too, but I feel like dismissing Jadeja because he's not done enough overseas here is not fair at all. I don't really think you'll be able to pick out more than 6-7 knocks for Imran too.

Thanks for these. I will give you that these are good contributions, though I disagree about his England hundred better than IK's Adelaide one but its not a big deal.

Having said this, Jadeja's average less than 30 in England overall after 12 games there, no? So how do you balance these highlights with that?

I guess that is why I prefer Jadeja plays more games in a longer stretch outside England to see if his average drops.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah have to agree with others that this is pretty near a dead heat, with Botham coming in a relatively distant third. Both have had peaks averaging near 50, though in terms of how I'd rate them as all-rounders Jadeja would probably be a better bat, given his batting and bowling peaks coincide while Imran's don't coincide as nicely (but how the **** was Imran's bowling tail-off followed by "oh hehe I guess I'll become a 39yo averaging 62 with bat then"?).

Wait you think Imran and Jadeja are better bats than Botham?