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Martin Crowe vs Virender Sehwag

Who was the better test batsman?


  • Total voters
    30

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Sehwag is a luxury someone like Bangladesh or the current South Africa probably can't afford. But with our other opener being solid enough, and Dravid and Sachin and a host of others coming in next, he was perfectly fine.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sehwag is a luxury someone like Bangladesh or the current South Africa probably can't afford. But with our other opener being solid enough, and Dravid and Sachin and a host of others coming in next, he was perfectly fine.
Hence why consistent all-conditions players are better as they add value in any side they join.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Huh, that's really weird logic for not rating Sehwag, or any other player for that matter. He can only play on the team that he played for.
I dont follow. Sehwag wasn't an all-conditions bat. Would that change if he was playing for Pakistan or SL, for example?
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Also, don't understand why Gilchrist gets nearly universal acclaim, and no criticism for his high strike rate as showing a "deficiency in technique". He struggled in India (and UAE) and never played in Pakistan, so I guess that means he couldn't play on turning tracks? Also, his batting job at 7 was considerably easier than Sehwag's opening, as by that point the vast majority of the time Australia's batting cake had been baked, he just had to be the icing on top.

This isn't to disparage Gilly, as I think he's great, but the criticism for Sehwag is too much. The man was a legendary, ATG opener, and better than anyone not named Hayden, in the 21st century.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Also, we give openers far too little credit, as compared to middle order bats. 1-2 points in average is nothing for the challenge of facing the new ball every single start of innings. It really should be at least 3-4, especially at the ATG level of guys like Hayden or Sehwag.
 

ashley bach

International Coach
Also, we give openers far too little credit, as compared to middle order bats. 1-2 points in average is nothing for the challenge of facing the new ball every single start of innings. It really should be at least 3-4, especially at the ATG level of guys like Hayden or Sehwag.
Sometimes opening is much easier than batting in the middle order, the ball comes off the bat nicely and runs can come quicker and easier.
Bowlers at the start sometimes aren't in rhythm and can often bowl much better 2nd/3rd spells.
Of course the emphasis is sometimes here.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Also, don't understand why Gilchrist gets nearly universal acclaim, and no criticism for his high strike rate as showing a "deficiency in technique". He struggled in India (and UAE) and never played in Pakistan, so I guess that means he couldn't play on turning tracks? Also, his batting job at 7 was considerably easier than Sehwag's opening, as by that point the vast majority of the time Australia's batting cake had been baked, he just had to be the icing on top.

This isn't to disparage Gilly, as I think he's great, but the criticism for Sehwag is too much. The man was a legendary, ATG opener, and better than anyone not named Hayden, in the 21st century.
Yup, Gilly had an easier job than Sehwag, nobody doubts that. But did he fail? He had two matchwinning innings in two tours of India, and one in SL on his tour there. From Australia's perspective, critical matchwinning knocks what was needed from him, like Pant, not middle order output, and he delivered.

Not comparable to Sehwag in Eng, NZ and SA as opener IMO.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sometimes opening is much easier than batting in the middle order, the ball comes off the bat nicely and runs can come quicker and easier.
Bowlers at the start sometimes aren't in rhythm and can often bowl much better 2nd/3rd spells.
Of course the emphasis is sometimes here.
Yeah, hence a 1-2 point boost is fair IMO.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Sometimes opening is much easier than batting in the middle order, the ball comes off the bat nicely and runs can come quicker and easier.
Bowlers at the start sometimes aren't in rhythm and can often bowl much better 2nd/3rd spells.
Of course the emphasis is sometimes here.
Not on average, in the modern era.

This is such a good question, and here's my historical reasoning as to why it should be the first factor (degree of difficulty in opening), and this is the higher factor by a large margin.

Here's the different averages by each position, for reference:

Full Test History (1877-Present):
Op) 35.71
01) 36.85
02) 34.56
03) 39.48
04) 40.84
05) 38.08
06) 32.61
07) 27.73
08) 21.31
09) 15.53
10) 11.57
11) 8.55
3-5) 39.49
Op/3-5) 0.904

Modern Era (1970-Pres):
Op) 35.92
01) 36.96
02) 34.88
03) 39.46
04) 41.66
05) 39.41
06) 34.11
07) 29.24
08) 21.91
09) 15.53
10) 11.40
11) 8.29
3-5) 40.18
Op/3-5) 0.894

Inter/Post Wars (1914-1969):
Op) 36.74
01) 38.49
02) 35.01
03) 41.86
04) 41.50
05) 36.21
06) 30.23
07) 24.89
08) 20.05
09) 15.89
10) 11.87
11) 8.70
3-5) 39.93
Op/3-5) 0.920

Pre World Wars (1877-1913):
Op) 28.69
01) 28.85
02) 28.53
03) 30.53
04) 27.54
05) 27.98
06) 22.55
07) 19.56
08) 18.60
09) 14.27
10) 12.62
11) 10.72
3-5) 28.70
Op/3-5) 1.000

If you look at the breakdown by eras, you'll notice that the gap between production of true middle order (I define as 3-5, but you can go with 3-4) is greatest in the modern era, but decreases in size progressively until you get to the earliest Pre World Wars eras where it's basically a negligible difference. It makes sense as well, as the absolute highest producing run-scorers of earlier eras were openers (think Hobbs, Sutcliffe). Thinking about it conceptually, if all else is equal and it's not really harder to open and bat up the order than further down then of course you'd want to put your best run scorers as high up the order as possible because it gives them the maximum ability to score the most runs possible, and minimizes the chance that they run out of batting partners.

So what changed from those early days of cricket to the modern era, with the highest run scorers of the side generally needing to be shielded from the new ball? Fast bowling technique with the new ball, developed and then exploded to become the defining feature of the game. This was really in it's infancy in the earlier eras of Test cricket for mine, and now that it's a given for any aspiring great side to be able to attack with their most skilled fast bowling resources with the first new ball to effect, it's clear to me that the most difficult specialist batting role in the side by far is that of the openers.

I mean, you don't need a ****ing in depth stats analysis for that, when we can all just ****ing watch the game and it should be clear, but it's nice to see the evolution broken down in numbers as well.

PS:
The original reason that I wanted to get this breakdown is to try and determine, in the modern game, the best spot for your best middle order bat, between the 3 or 4 positions. And assuming that that position should be where that best batsman can maximize his run-scoring potential (because why the **** wouldn't you want him to), then I think that is clearly the number 4 position in the modern game. I think it ends up being in that Goldilocks zone where you're both the vast majority of the time avoiding the first new ball ( something the number 3 will see often enough to impact his scoring ), and early enough to make their mark on the game before you've lost the majority of your best batting resources (like a bat coming in at 5 would deal with) and are not in much danger of running out of partners either. Of course, individual comfort and preferences of this best bat in the side will also effect the batting spot decision, but if in doubt I think 4 is the best spot*.

*Unless you're a Pakistani bat circa the 2000s, and senior players would want to get as far away from the possibility of facing the new ball as much as possible, (i.e. Inzamam playing 5) because the openers were utterly incompetent and would put you in that position constantly.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Or current India. I mean he’s not a luxury a poor batting lineup can afford to carry IMO. But to Dravid+Sachin and others, he was a very good icing
why though? An opener averaging 30 wouldn't be all that terrible for a poor batting line up and he would win them games when the conditions are in his favor. Surely any team with a poor batting would actually grab him asap.
 

Neil Young

International 12th Man
How do these player comparisons work? Two different players, batting in two different positions, for different teams in different eras. Just what parameters/criteria do you use?
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
why though? An opener averaging 30 wouldn't be all that terrible for a poor batting line up and he would win them games when the conditions are in his favor. Surely any team with a poor batting would actually grab him asap.
Averaging 30 is so low in output its not going make a difference.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
See my response to ashley bach. 1-2 points is way too small in the modern era. The numbers back that up, and the magnitude of the difference should be greater, the better then batsmen in question.
Yeah but opening in India or Australia in the 2000s for Sehwag and Hayden is actually a prime position rather than a liability.
 

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