Mr Miyagi
Banned
We havn't used the same philosophy. Your version of #bat deep is more shallow than mine, and you have more accumulators whereas I have more high SR hitters.
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Test XI for The Last Quarter Century
- Thread starter trundler
- Start date
cnerd123
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Failure to adjust for era
FMD calling prime MSD, Symonds and Jayasuriya 'accumulators'.
Like, this shouldn't even require me to sit down and break down how the stats should be read. If you've followed ODI cricket over the last two decades you'll understand how absurd that is.
Adjust for era man.
trundler
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That's jut nitpicking. I'd have Hussey in there somewhere. Symond's bowling cant be much worse than Flintoff's batting imo. Same thing. Plus gun fielder. Sachin can put in some overs where needed. The bowling with McGrath definitely outweighs any (perceived) batting superiority.
Curious that this hasn't come up. No one's argued that Pollock and McGrath are too similar. Is variety less of a consideration in ODIs?
Curious that this hasn't come up. No one's argued that Pollock and McGrath are too similar. Is variety less of a consideration in ODIs?
cnerd123
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I reckon Pollock/McGrath take the new ball, and then McGrath has a second spell in the middle overs when the batsmen want to go into autopilot - he'll be great at challenging them during that phase - while Pollock bowls at the death. Think it could work. Wasim first change and death overs. Warne in the middle with the other part timers for support.
trundler
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That works. McGrath gets the top-order and the team's best out (as always) and Wasim, Pollock and Warne to clean up the pinch-hitters and McGrath left-overs.
Mr Miyagi
Banned
MSD as against Butler. Yeah. I didn't say anything about Symonds or Jayasuriya. So please don't strawman.
My adjustments have been made already. I like my team and philosophy more. You like your team and philosophy more.
Mr Miyagi
Banned
It has come up some pages ago. I dropped McGrath for Pollock to #BatDeep so it was not an issue for me.
cnerd123
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MSD as an accumulator FMD.
Can you please share your working on these adjustments you've made? I want to see what your logic behind these selections is.
Borges
International Regular
Yes, #BatDeep. You can say that again.
It's not for nothing that England who #BatDeep are the #NumberOne ODI team in the universe.
Needless to say, #NumberOne ODI team today == #NumberOne ODI team in the history of cricket.
They are too similar. Just got to suck it up though. They are streets ahead of whoever the next best choice is.
Mr Miyagi
Banned
MSD is more of an accumulator when compared to Buttler. Yes.
I have seen plenty of Dhoni 6's too.
As for my working on adjustments, no, I am not going to share with you my views on eras and adjustments in this thread, be it the 1970's, post WSC 1980's (with global and rule change differences), post 1992 which includes the relevant timeframe here of 1993-99, post Kluesner, post T20 and "big bats", or at any further time periods. In whatever segments you may wish to divide them in.
If you want to discuss era adjustments, which is a great topic, start a new thread, and I may contribute my views if I feel so inclined.
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cnerd123
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So basically you're not going to justify your bold stance. You're happy to take a stance and defend it to the end, but do nothing to justify it
The onus is on others to change your mind, you're not here to explain how you made your own mind up. Not interested in sharing what thought processes and data lead you to your conclusion. That's for you to know, and us to figure out. We exist on the forum to do the number crunching and present the arguments and logic to you to convince you. You're not interested in seeking out that information for yourself.
There have been so many threads and discussions on CW trying to standardizes cricketers' performances across eras, so many all time lists drawn up, so many articles over the web explaining why certain players earn their spot over others and doing all sorts of statistical analysis to better understand these issues.
You're not inclined to share with us what you know that goes against all of this. You're happy calling MSD an accumulator because his SR is lower than Butlers, and it's up to us to explain to you how that's probably not enough analysis to go off.
Okay.
TheJediBrah
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McGrath and Pollock aren't that similar just because McGrath is comfortably superior
It's like comparing Wasim Akram to Nathan Bracken
actually there's another underrated bowler: Bracken averaged 24 as an ODI bowler in an era of high scoring. In fact arguing that Bracken = Wasim Akram in terms of quality wouldn't be crazy at all.
cnerd123
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Bracken is very underrated. Not ***y to watch like Wasim, but was world class in ODIs for a long time.
If he was around now he'd be an IPL millionaire for sure.
Mr Miyagi
Banned
No - its really not. I am not trying to convert anyone to my philosophy. I have already said this before. I am happy to discuss teams, philosophies and enjoy conversations about cricket with people of differing opinions on certain aspects and points to those of my own.
But I am not recruiting nor trying to change minds to my philosophies of cricket.
If someone else wants to change my mind, they are welcome to try and persuade me.
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cnerd123
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I'm just using your words man
You've take a stance, you don't want to discuss how or why, aren't willing to explain, you just want to say something and have other people do all the work of explaining to you why you should think differently. And then maybe you'll change your mind.
What's the point of having an opinion if you aren't willing to explore it or have it changed. It's just wasting time. I've wasted so much time in this thread already. I'm not happy having had this interaction with you. All this energy to learn that you dont actually have any good reason for your bold stance. And now onus is on me to show you how stats work to make you see why picking him over MSD is dumb. I'm not going to do that. What do I get out of it.
TheJediBrah
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I'm starting to see what this is like from the other side.
Can we just accept that Miyagi likes Buttler in the team and that others don't? He doesn't have to have reasons that convince everyone to change their minds or vice versa. It's just what it is.
Can we just accept that Miyagi likes Buttler in the team and that others don't? He doesn't have to have reasons that convince everyone to change their minds or vice versa. It's just what it is.
cnerd123
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I mean sure, I can accept it.
I'm just disappointed he comes into a thread, will put forward a bold opinion, and when challenged about it over pages and pages, his reasoning behind it is ultimately "I like Jos Butler"
Here I was expecting him to have either some really good reason to do with statistics or performances, or to maybe have some really flawed argument that we could tuck into and then maybe change his mind.
But ultimately it all boils down to "Sorry, I just saw he has a higher SR on Cricinfo and I like Jos Butler"
Like if he had just said that off the bat instead of trying to argue that MSD is 'too slow' or that Butler somehow has it in him to smash around ATG bowlers to the same effect, then we wouldn't have got here. But he didn't say that, and so here I thought there was something to be gained from all this. Either he learns and admits he's wrong or we learn something new. But no, nothing.
It's just so disappointing. And the same goes for batting Watto and Flintoff in the middle order, or dropping McGrath. Like he makes all these selections, and goes around posting like he's this smart guy who can discuss law with professional lawyers and will 'crunch the numbers' on how much Rashid Khan will spin the ball - to see that he actually puts so little thought into that team and is then still willing to defend it...urgh
Really feels like I've wasted my time here.
Mr Miyagi
Banned
What do I get out of showing you why I prefer Buttler to Dhoni in a mass debate about eras?
You keep talking about onus, onus is for proof. I don't need to prove to you that in my team philosophy I prefer Butler to Dhoni. You do not need to prove to me that in your (or my team philosophy for that matter) that I should have Dhoni and not Butler.
Not every disagreement between people requires them to ultimately agree on something.
I am not trying to convert anyone to my philosophy.
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