Test XI for The Last Quarter Century

[vcs]

Gilly won 3 World Cups and had a great finals record though.

Apart from Dhoni, the others have plenty to prove yet. De Kock looks like he might get there though. Buttler needs to be more consistent.

 

[trundler]

He was brilliant behind the stumps. Dhoni's slow batting has put me off. De Kock and Buttler, I dunno. They're good, I remember De Kock's 2 consecutive tons against India well. Buttler's been good too but they're still going and they haven't done any of the standout things like WC knockout stage win yet. Giving the gloves to AB and having another slogger seems like a good idea.

 

[trundler]

Exactly. Why are we just going by stats here?

 

[Bolo]

Agreed.

Totally disagree. They need more SR than those before them to maximise unless bowled out.



I don't have Maxwell.


I have Tendulkar, Amla and Kohli chewing up the top order.

I have AbDV, Watto and Buttler smashing the middle order.

I have Flintoff, Kluesner, Pollock to finish.

I have Akram as insurance.

I have Murali to bowl only.

Tell me Butler is still an uncertainty. I agree. But he has played 109 ODI games now. And I like his numbers over Gilly, Dhoni or de Kock.

The rest - I like. I bat to 10, to 9 with a century, and I have 6 front line bowlers. I like it as a team. I really do. I just want a better bowler than Tendulkar as the second spinner (and 7th option). But I am not ready to drop anyone for the alternatives just yet.

Teams do get bowled out. When setting a total, a batting lineup of 6* Dravid and one of 6* Buttler will likely score the same amount of runs. The David's will often use every ball in the innings in doing so, decreasing the need for reliability from everyone else. The Butlers will leave the lower order with balls to face, increasing the need for them to be reliable. When chasing it doesn't matter.

You are replying to commentary on John's team, not yours. His team has a balance problem due to overfocussing on SR. Yours doesn't.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Gilly won 3 World Cups and had a great finals record though.

Apart from Dhoni, the others have plenty to prove yet. De Kock looks like he might get there though. Buttler needs to be more consistent.

Gilly's 3 world cups are not like Jordan, Curry or Le Bron MVP's. In the finals in limited overs cricket - anyone can win, as demonstrated by India in 1983, Aus 1987, Pak 1992, or SL in 1996. Yes favourites WI and Aus won a lot too as a team, not individuals.

Dhoni has no world cup wins besides at home skating on GG coat tails and Yurvraj to get them there.

So, as much as I respect you vcs, pick a side to your argument.

Buttler doesn't need consistency for me, he needs to continue the SR at the same mid 30's average. It isn't much of an ask to average mid 30's it is massive to ask to a SR of 118 though.

Buttler is batting 6 with Kluesner, Flintoff and Pollock to follow. There is minimal pressure on him.

I think Dhoni is too slow to be frank. Yes he finished a lot, but he lost a lot. With Poĺlock at 9, Flintoff at 8 and Kleusner at 7 - I just want sr, not someone taking it deep.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Teams do get bowled out. When setting a total, a batting lineup of 6* Dravid and one of 6* Buttler will likely score the same amount of runs. The David's will often use every ball in the innings in doing so, decreasing the need for reliability from everyone else. The Butlers will leave the lower order with balls to face, increasing the need for them to be reliable. When chasing it doesn't matter.

You are replying to commentary on John's team, not yours. His team has a balance problem due to overfocussing on SR. Yours doesn't.

Well I am still waiting his team, but I appreciate you think myside balanced, even though I have some mad SR :P

 

[Mr Miyagi]

He was brilliant behind the stumps. Dhoni's slow batting has put me off. De Kock and Buttler, I dunno. They're good, I remember De Kock's 2 consecutive tons against India well. Buttler's been good too but they're still going and they haven't done any of the standout things like WC knockout stage win yet. Giving the gloves to AB and having another slogger seems like a good idea.

This isn't pick a WC XI which would probably have Mark Waugh replace Amla as an opener with Tendulkar and see Crowe in one of the teams at 4. This is All Time Great, not just World Cup Great. Aus won the last world cup, who was their superstar? Starc? Not mentioned in a single team. Surely not Haddin. Faulkn er? No. You're stuck with Watto.

I agree pressure runs are pressure runs. So is pressure bowling. But just how weight is appropriate for a lottery every 4 years once the finals start? Do Aus fans even rate the WC or is all about the Ashes?

I have seen BCCI, SL and WI fans try to conflate the World Cup with WT20. So how important is this event? To me, I'd love to see NZ win it. But what does the world feel about it?

 

[trundler]

It's pretty big in Pakistan, at least.

 

[Bolo]

Well I am still waiting his team, but I appreciate you think myside balanced, even though I have some mad SR :P

The only player you have prioritised sr over average for is Buttler. Nothing wrong doing this on one player (number of games played notwithstanding). The rest of your team might strike fast, but you aren't really compromising on reliability. He's got Buttler, Maxwell and Russell, which is a big compromise.

 

[Jack1]

Dude, please save me going back - what is your team. Repost the the XI. I liked your post by the way. Some very good reasoning in there that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Maxwell
Buttler
Kohli (c)
AbD
Watson 5
Gilchrist (wk)(vc)
Russell 6
Rashid Khan 4
Pollock 3
Ambrose 2
McGrath 1

I went for batsman that maximise the overs. I think with the solidarity and ability to anchor from 3-6 it’s very difficult to bowl out too for even an atg attacks The best four bowlers can bowl out in 40 overs if they are taking enough wickets, otherwise Watson comes on at some point and he could potentially bowl in tandem with Russell at the tail no problem.

I think people are too scared of potentially getting bowled out and some teams are short on good fielders. I like my chances with my bowling personally. Also no need for too much bowling either. Depends who it’s playing. If my team is playing standard international teams which was the intention when I picked it then it is very rarely going to need a 5 th bowler let alone a 6th.

 

[vcs]

Gilly's 3 world cups are not like Jordan, Curry or Le Bron MVP's. In the finals in limited overs cricket - anyone can win, as demonstrated by India in 1983, Aus 1987, Pak 1992, or SL in 1996.

Dhoni has no world cup wins besides at home skating on GG coat tails and Yurvraj to get them there.

So, as much as I respect you vcs, pick a side to your argument.

Buttler doesn't need consistency for me, he needs to continue the SR at the same mid 30's average. It isn't much of an ask to average mid 30's it is massive to ask to a SR of 118 though.

He is batting 6 with Kluesner, Flintoff and Pollock to follow. There is minimal pressure on him.

There is no "side" here. I was merely contesting your assertion that "cricket has moved on" and Gilly is no longer a consideration because Dhoni, De Kock and Buttler have overtaken him. Only Dhoni (arguably) out of those 3 has come close to doing that.

 

[Jack1]

As Ponting and the laws of physics says, range hitting as everyone emulated Kluesner post 1999 (that is practising 6 hitting on ground sizes) and especially in t20 made the biggest change. Bats are still subject to physics, and the GN scoop with its bigger edges was brilliantly balanced as used by the Chapell brothers back in the 1970's.


I can find references if you want.

The players train differently now and are stronger. I think you’re forgetting that factor. Bats help, but then again bowlers can analyse the batsman more now too. Batsmen are a lot more skilled now in general, especially against full deliveries

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Maxwell
Buttler
Kohli (c)
AbD
Watson 5
Gilchrist (wk)(vc)
Russell 6
Rashid Khan 4
Pollock 3
Ambrose 2
McGrath 1

I went for batsman that maximise the overs. I think with the solidarity and ability to anchor from 3-6 it’s very difficult to bowl out too for even an atg attacks The best four bowlers can bowl out in 40 overs if they are taking enough wickets, otherwise Watson comes on at some point and he could potentially bowl in tandem with Russell at the tail no problem.

I think people are too scared of potentially getting bowled out and some teams are short on good fielders. I like my chances with my bowling personally. Also no need for too much bowling either. Depends who it’s playing. If my team is playing standard international teams which was the intention when I picked it then it is very rarely going to need a 5 th bowler let alone a 6th.

I like what you're trying to do - but I see why many won't.

Think about it again. Is 2 wicket keepers the best? I like Dre Russ, I like Rashid, but Rashid at 8 in an ATG? I see Pollie at 9, and I really like that. We share 3,4 and 9 plus we both Buttler.

But you have Maxwell opening and not the 6th bowling option.

Have a think overnight. See if you change anything :P

 

[Jack1]

Rashin Khan has mostly played against Associates though. He's terrific but I'm going to wait. Cant be too sure that these players aren't going to **** everything up.
And Bumrah is good too but I'm not putting him up there. Akram was perfect for limited overs cricket because of the variety he had. Pretty entertaining too. Bumrah is a promising bloke but there's others too like Hasan Ali and Mitchel Starc.

@John1990, I'm not disputing your logic. For an ODI, you want a team that scores 350+ often but the problem is your selection. A high strike rate wont contribute much if the bloke is going to last 5 balls.
Lastly, I don't think a McGrath or a Garner would be just good bowlers today. The thing with McGrath was his intelligence and adaptability. He was extremely accurate (Garner too) and I say he could've landed 60 yorkers on the trot if he wanted to. Garner was just unplayable at times so I don't think his ER would be affected too much. Not fair to say they'd be just normal blokes today imo. I picked these 2 as examples because they're the best imo.

That’s why McGrath’s in my team!

Maxwell averages 32 in Odis, he’s not a number 11 lol

 

[Mr Miyagi]

The players train differently now and are stronger. I think you’re forgetting that factor. Bats help, but then again bowlers can analyse the batsman more now too. Batsmen are a lot more skilled now in general, especially against full deliveries

I'm well aware of this factor of batsmen being stronger.

Bats helping - that's the factor I take an issue with :P

Batsman skilled - totally agree. Real batsman regularly 6 hitting starts with Kluesner after 1999 (outside the first 15 overs post 1992 - openers like Greatbatch, Jaya etc) :P Before that, it was the likes of C Cairns, S Odonnell, Viv Richards et al.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

There is no "side" here. I was merely contesting your assertion that "cricket has moved on" and Gilly is no longer a consideration because Dhoni, De Kock and Buttler have overtaken him. Only Dhoni (arguably) out of those 3 has come close to doing that.

What's Dhoni besides take games deep and help his average? :P

Dhoni is still striking below GIlly in a higher scoring era? I don't see how Dhoni has overtaken Gilly in runs per match at strike rate, if you take not outs of the equation for both players.

I aint done the math. But I will happily tomorrow.

 

[Jack1]

I like what you're trying to do - but I see why many won't.

Think about it again. Is 2 wicket keepers the best? I like Dre Russ, I like Rashid, but Rashid at 8 in an ATG? I see Pollie at 9, and I really like that. We share 3,4 and 9 plus we both Buttler.

But you have Maxwell opening and not the 6th bowling option.

Have a think overnight. See if you change anything :P

Maxwell and Russell are in because they hold the top 2 all time strike rates in Odis and good enough averages for me. Rashid and Pollock can both bat so it’s ok as it bats to 9. Rashid is good there as he can slog too.

I don’t mind two keepers as Buttler is a decent fielder. He’s better in the field than a lot of batsman I could have opened with and good hitter. Stabilisation and quick accumulation is mostly from 3-5 and Gilchrist can help if needed.

Some interesting teams picked. The ones I worry most about are the ones with too many batsmen with “low” SRs at the top that aren’t good fielders either

 

[Jack1]

What's Dhoni besides take games deep and help his average? :P

Dhoni is still striking below GIlly in a higher scoring era? I don't see how Dhoni has overtaken Gilly in runs per match at strike rate, if you take not outs of the equation for both players.

I aint done the math. But I will happily tomorrow.

Dhoni’s strike rate is no where near good enough in this era for a lower order batter (to get into an all time team) that’s for sure. He regularly just puts pressure on himself, the team and the other batsman that’s at the crease with him. I don’t like how he chases or sets totals. I’d be very happy to see him on the opposing side over someone like Buttler or Gilchrist

 

[vcs]

What's Dhoni besides take games deep and help his average? :P

1st ODI, Pakistan tour of India at Chennai, Dec 30 2012 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

3rd ODI (D/N), Australia tour of India at Chandigarh, Oct 19 2013 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

2nd ODI (D/N), England tour of India at Cuttack, Jan 19 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

1st ODI (D/N), Australia tour of India at Chennai, Sep 17 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Maxwell and Russell are in because they hold the top 2 all time strike rates in Odis and good enough averages for me. Rashid and Pollock can both bat so it’s ok as it bats to 9. Rashid is good there as he can slog too.

I don’t mind two keepers as Buttler is a decent fielder. He’s better in the field than a lot of batsman I could have opened with and good hitter. Stabilisation and quick accumulation is mostly from 3-5 and Gilchrist can help if needed.

Some interesting teams picked. The ones I worry most about are the ones with too many batsmen with “low” SRs at the top that aren’t good fielders either

I think, and it is just my opinion, you need some more stable batting, the masses will speak. But I suspect that is what they will want too.

But - wouldn't it be nice to see what Butler could do as an opener for a few years to really see :P

Maxy has a great record opening too, but such a small sample.