_00_deathscar
International Regular
Who?
Teams need bullies and they need fighters - you need both styles to win. Same with football really - you can't have 11 Ibrahimovics. You need a Dirk Kuyt or two in there somewhere to dig in deep.
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Who would you pick as your 2 Test openers from 21st Century?
- Thread starter Singh767
- Start date
trundler
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Donald-Pollock probably
_00_deathscar
International Regular
That's who I thought he was referring to, except I don't understand the "at that stage, seemingly, the the greatest new ball partnership ever".
Donald was well on the wane by that point (although he may have had a great series - can't recall. Early rapid Pollock had also subsided and was on his way to morphing into more subdued version, though still excellent of course.
Both have pretty poor records against Australia too.
Ya. They both fell away soon afterwards and list a bit of their sheen, but they were seriously evil with the new ball before this. Averaged 20 and 21 after 'slow' starts to their careers, and Pollock wasn't even much good with the old ball.
I checked their numbers. Both played AUS at the start of their careers which spoiled their numbers a bit. Donald was averaging 28* and Pollock 23 against them at this stage. The previous series vs AUS Pollock had taken over 5wpm @22 and Donald had taken 6wpm@18.
*Same as both career macgrath or career to date Mcgrath, who was bowling in the same conditions at much weaker bats. Mcgrath struck much slower and averaged nearly a wicket and a half per test less.
They both improved since then. Pollock averaged 20.43 in a calendar year three years before this but every other year in the last three by both of them had been in the teens. Pollocks average with the new ball must have been insane, because he didn't offer much else.
They really were looking like the greatest new ball attack ever. They still might be- while neither of them was the best new ball bowler in hindsight (not even close to the best new ball bowler in the series looking back on careers), and they weren't the best pair to take the field, when they had the new ball together they were pretty awesome, both at their peaks. The only pair that springs to mind as potentially ahead was Walsh/Ambrose, but Donald/Pollock had left them in the dust in two series not long before this.
The writing was in the wall before the series started due to injuries. But they were awesome every time they managed to get on the field before this, and they did appear.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hayden's detractors try and say that every time he dominated a class attack it was because they were past it. Or there was some other excuse lie it was too hot for the bowlers or he got dropped or or or.
The Aussies who don't like him do so because he got dominated by Ambrose early on in his career. But he came back better and stronger after a long time in the sidelines. Some people refuse to believe someone can get better with practice.
Hayden was a batsman who often turned tests into no contests after a single session. I believe wisden did an analysis which said he was the most valuable batsman in a long time. His hundreds translating often into Australian wins.
The Aussies who don't like him do so because he got dominated by Ambrose early on in his career. But he came back better and stronger after a long time in the sidelines. Some people refuse to believe someone can get better with practice.
Hayden was a batsman who often turned tests into no contests after a single session. I believe wisden did an analysis which said he was the most valuable batsman in a long time. His hundreds translating often into Australian wins.
morgieb
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One thing Hayden detractors forget when they talk about his swing ability (and I do too sometimes) is his Shield record. 90's Shield was genuinely great cricket (not far off Test standard, for example) and the Gabba was bowler-friendly as hell. Yet he still managed to average mid-50's, which is excellent in any ones book.
And calling him a downhill skier when he's an opener scoring the majority of his runs (IIRC) in the first innings is dumb.
And calling him a downhill skier when he's an opener scoring the majority of his runs (IIRC) in the first innings is dumb.
TheJediBrah
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I think you just have to accept that how much people like a player's personality will affect how they rate them. It's easy to make excuses for underrating someone you don't like, likewise for overrated someone you do.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
No. Show me matches where he came up against great bowlers and dominated them. At least for a bit.
Fact of the matter is, he didn't like it, and often failed, when the opposition could bluster him and the pace bowlers were decent. Eng 2005 as an example.
That's what I mean by downhill skier, as an opener
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
I’ve only just started looking and the back to back 01/02 Australia vs South Africa home away he went well a few times first innings and second innings, Allan Donald, Makhaya Ntini et al.
The Ashes opened in 02/03.
Actually, looking at the bowling in Hayden’s peak years, who were the best bowling lineups? The England 05 weren’t that great, South Africa is about it.
The Ashes opened in 02/03.
Actually, looking at the bowling in Hayden’s peak years, who were the best bowling lineups? The England 05 weren’t that great, South Africa is about it.
OverratedSanity
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England 05 was an amazing attack. Look at how they were bowling, not just the names of the bowlers. I consider England 05-06 and 2010-11 up there with most attacks in history purely on their form at the time.
Last edited:
morgieb
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2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Sri Lanka and United Arab Emirates at Sharjah, Oct 11-12 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
Admittedly Waqar was past it at that point, but that still includes Shoaib and two quality spinners. And while the conditions make it hard to gauge, the scores indicate it was at least kind of a tough team.
Even in 05 he still managed a century, just not in his usual fashion.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
While he was still green:
vs Bishop and Walsh:
4th Test, West Indies tour of Australia at Adelaide, Jan 25-28 1997 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
Top scoring second innings on a ridiculously variable pitch against Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh
5th Test, West Indies tour of Australia at Perth, Feb 1-3 1997 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
After his recall:
vs Pollock/Kallis
1st Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Adelaide, Dec 14-18 2001 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Donald/Pollock/Kallis
2nd Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Melbourne, Dec 26-29 2001 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Donald/Pollock/Kallis
3rd Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Sydney, Jan 2-5 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Donald/Ntini/Kallis/Nel
1st Test, Australia tour of South Africa at Johannesburg, Feb 22-24 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Waqar/Akhtar/Kaneria/Razzaq/Saqlain in ridiculous conditions:
2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Sri Lanka and United Arab Emirates at Sharjah, Oct 11-12 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Vaas/Murali
1st Test, Australia tour of Sri Lanka at Galle, Mar 8-12 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Vaas/Malinga/Murali
2nd Test, Sri Lanka tour of Australia at Cairns, Jul 9-13 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
Then after this match:
2nd Test, Sri Lanka tour of Australia at Cairns, Jul 9-13 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
Hayden went fifteen months without scoring a century. In that time he faced India in India, New Zealand at home, Pakistan at home, New Zealand in New Zealand and then England in England. It was a genuine form slump. Other than Akhtar, none of the teams until England had any good fast bowling. India at home mostly bowled tweakers, New Zealand had a bunch of medium paced trundlers. Pakistan conceded no less than 350 runs in any of those three tests. Yes, Akhtar got Hayden out three times, but opening batsmen usually get out to opening bowlers if they get out cheaply.
He broke that drought in the final test of the 2005 series:
5th Test, Australia tour of England and Scotland at London, Sep 8-12 2005 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
He scored another ton against Flintoff/Harmison/Kallis/Murali in the World XI game:
Only Test, ICC World XI tour of Australia at Sydney, Oct 14-17 2005 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Pollock/Ntini/Kallis/Nel
2nd Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Melbourne, Dec 26-30 2005 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
vs Pollock/Kallis/Nel
3rd Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Sydney, Jan 2-6 2006 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
top scoring vs Ntini/Kallis/Nel
1st Test, Australia tour of South Africa at Cape Town, Mar 16-18 2006 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
Another hundred vs Ntini/Pollock/Kallis/Nel
2nd Test, Australia tour of South Africa at Durban, Mar 24-28 2006 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
If anything, Hayden should have downhill skiied harder - in the 2000/01 five test series against the West Indies he barely scored anything despite the West Indies being utterly thumped during that time (Ambrose had retired by this point). He should have cashed in a lot more against New Zealand in Australia and against the West Indies in 2003. He should have cashed in against Bangladesh in the couple of tests he played against them and if he'd retired after the 2007/08 India series he would have ended with a much more appealing average.
morgieb
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Fair call.
Feels weird to rate Sehwag ahead of Hayden though given he was even worse against quality seam bowling. Cook admittedly is kinda different but didn't do enough outside of his peak.
He did well against a strongish NZ with bond the series before this.
Then this RSA side was strong.
These are the only two strong pace attacks he ever damaged and signal the start of his peak.
WI and Pak were in the process of falling apart from age at this stage.
Rsa fell apart completely after this series- injuries and retirements. They were complete garbage for the return series. Sometimes they had some decent bowlers after this (fit Pollock was a factor, but rare), but sometimes Kallis was the only test quality bowler.
NZ fell apart badly pretty quickly. Bond
England were mediocre but built up to 2005.
RSA solid by 2006? Good in 2007.
So bowling was basically utter garbage for a while. The timing of Haydens peak is not unique or a coincidence.
Then this RSA side was strong.
These are the only two strong pace attacks he ever damaged and signal the start of his peak.
WI and Pak were in the process of falling apart from age at this stage.
Rsa fell apart completely after this series- injuries and retirements. They were complete garbage for the return series. Sometimes they had some decent bowlers after this (fit Pollock was a factor, but rare), but sometimes Kallis was the only test quality bowler.
NZ fell apart badly pretty quickly. Bond
England were mediocre but built up to 2005.
RSA solid by 2006? Good in 2007.
So bowling was basically utter garbage for a while. The timing of Haydens peak is not unique or a coincidence.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
good post. He also played crap in the '01 Ashes where nearly all his peers filled their boots against a very woeful english side. And this was right after his best ever series when he scored 500+ runs in India
I'm sure Red Hill will mention those SA scores in 01/02 were against a past-it Donald
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Thing is that Hayden was good against RSA against whoever they threw at him. It's a shame we didn't see an earlier Hayden vs Donald battle, but we didn't.