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Thread: The case of the missing black Test cricketer

  1. #76
    International 12th Man Quaggas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    They have very high school fees though. public schools these days are basically rural schools.

    Proper teacher, coaches, school tours costs a lot of money.
    Of course. I was just trying to think of government schools with a "cricket pedigree." Martizburg is another, for example, but they don't have any international cricketers of note

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaggas View Post
    Affies is public iirc
    So is KES.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    They have very high school fees though. public schools these days are basically rural schools.

    Proper teacher, coaches, school tours costs a lot of money.
    But if you live in the feeder area, and prove you can't afford the fees, they have to accept you. Private schools don't.

    But that doesn't mean they have to pay for you to have decent sporting equipment etc.

  4. #79
    State Vice-Captain kykweer.proteas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    But if you live in the feeder area, and prove you can't afford the fees, they have to accept you. Private schools don't.

    But that doesn't mean they have to pay for you to have decent sporting equipment etc.
    I cant imagine many kids of townships that live in shacks regularly go to these types of schools. (schools in the top20 in SA).


  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by kykweer.proteas View Post
    I cant imagine many kids of townships that live in shacks regularly go to these types of schools. (schools in the top20 in SA).
    I didn't say they did.

    Apparently that's what Jacques Kallis's foundation does, they arrange bursaries for underprivileged kids that have shown a talent for cricket, to go to good schools.

  6. #81
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    I'm totally okay with quotas on the franchise level. It'd be a level playing field, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson007 View Post
    I'm totally okay with quotas on the franchise level. It'd be a level playing field, after all.
    I'm not comfortable with quotas, it smacks of racial bean counting.

    Affirmative action is something completely different, and something I do support.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marius View Post
    I'm not comfortable with quotas, it smacks of racial bean counting.
    So? As long as it benefits the national team in the long run, it's to the benefit of South African cricket. The end goal is always the national team.

    Affirmative action is completely indistinguishable from quotas in sport. There will always be hundreds of candidates that are skilled enough to play cricket and the amount of skill they possess will always be subjective to the scout's opinion.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson007 View Post
    So? As long as it benefits the national team in the long run, it's to the benefit of South African cricket. The end goal is always the national team.

    Affirmative action is completely indistinguishable from quotas in sport. There will always be hundreds of candidates that are skilled enough to play cricket and the amount of skill they possess will always be subjective to the scout's opinion.
    We don't actually even need quotas at franchise level.

    In the tripleheader at Newlands on Sunday, the number of blacks playing was as follows:

    Warriors: 3
    Lions: 4
    Cobras: 6
    Knights: 3
    Dolphins: 4
    Titans: 5

    I hardly think there is a need for quotas.

    Unless you are implying that only Africans are blacks? And how will we determine who is an African? Shall we use the pencil test? Perhaps we can look in Hendrik Verwoerd's notes on the differences between the races? Perhaps lip size or skull shape may help us determine who is what?

    Apartheid poisoned us and this debate is proof of that.

  10. #85
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    Uh. Culture would be a good start. How many of those you list actually have an ethnic surname? One in every team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson007 View Post
    Uh. Culture would be a good start. How many of those you list actually have an ethnic surname? One in every team?
    All surnames are ethnic, just because a surname is of African origin doesn't mean it's 'ethnic'.

    OK, so if we have a person like Mluleki George (former ANC leader, now a member of COPE), Ngconde Balfour (former sports minister) or Ntombazana Botha (former ANC deputy cabinet minister), will we make them write some sort of culture test?

    'What is Zulu for dog?'

    "How much lobola is generally paid for a Venda bride?'

    And should an African who went to St Johns and whose father is a CA, get preference over a coloured child from a single parent family in the Cape Flats who went to a rubbish school?

    Everybody who wasn't white suffered under apartheid, I don't know why we need to provide quotas for Africans.
    Last edited by Marius; 09-01-2014 at 02:37 AM.

  12. #87
    State Vice-Captain kykweer.proteas's Avatar
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    I think that simply giving these boys burseries are an extremely short sighted solution on par for quota selections and affirmative action, because a lot of people might deserve a bursery more than whoever might end up with it.

    What India is doing is they have cricket academies all over, Virat Kohli joined one when he was like ten so he is getting expert coaching, good facilities etc. but to them it is a long term investment because they hage huge industries pumping money into cricket because there are over a billion people to reach.

    In south africa we are satisfied with Sunfoil, with government threatening to ban SAB sponsership the future of cricket is really very gloomy.

    CSA cant even afford to pay their own bonuses lol. Is there really enough money to run an academy in the transkei? For 100-200 kids?

    Therefore there is no solution in the narrow scheme of things. Unless we can narrow the gap between the rich and poor little makaya ngam would rather play soccer. building cricket field near locations are a disaster and will basically jist used for goats to graze and facilities will be left in ruins, its just not practical.

  13. #88
    State Vice-Captain kykweer.proteas's Avatar
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    someone said earlier that earlier that black people dont have the facilitiesthe white kids have with all their fancy tennis courts and stuff... what an absolute loud of BS.

    I work in rural areas a lot from an engineering perspective and there is a lot of money pumped into infrustructure from mining companies and sasol etc with huge fields that are constructed with all sorts of facilities. .. Left... In... Ruins.

    I dont even think municipalities run these places anymore anywhere, even in traditional white communities. and its all left in the hands of private clubs.
    Last edited by kykweer.proteas; 09-01-2014 at 05:48 AM.

  14. #89
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    Representation in national sporting codes are important so I don't why it gets swept aside in South Africa as if its not important...a side show to winning. To illustrate this, I would like to invite responses from the the other nationalities in this forum on the following scenarios:

    To All the English:

    Alot of talk and debate is going on about cricketers representing England that are not born and bred English. It fact, there is a standing joke in international cricket about how many Saffa's are in the team. Recently Boyd Rankin has joined the party, a fast bowler of Irish descent and is making more English eyebrows climb. In the quest for excellence, the English team is steadily becoming un-english. In a few years time it will not be uncommon for the English national cricket team to field a team of naturalized English players. How does that make you feel and do you think its right?

    To the all the Aussies:

    Fawad Alam was recently in the firing line for asking permission to remove the VB bitters logo (ala Hashim Amla style) from the Aussie jersey. Alot of "born and bred aussies" protesting that its un-aussie and that if Fawad Alam wants to be an aussie that bad, he's got to take the whole package and not just cherry pick what aussie values he will uphold. The issue also brought into the spotlight the practice of "importing talent" from other countries to fill deficiencies in the aussie cricket system. Alot of people were hot and bothered because it raised possibilities of fielding teams of naturalised australians who didn't understand nor care about the aussie psyche or value system. If CA had to import a top class top 6 batting unit from India and so combine with your potent bowling attack and is doing becoming number 1 test team, how would that make you feel?

    To all the Windies:

    If there are only 1-2 black guys in the team, and the rest is white, how would you feel about that? In Frank Worrell's time, that wasn't unheard of.

    To all the Pakistani's

    If you had 1 muslim and 10 christian's representing your team, how would you feel about that?

    To all the Indian's

    How would you feel if the Indian national team was made up of only cricketers representing 1 religious and/or cultural sect?

    To All the Zimbabwian's

    How did you feel about a white dominated team representing your country during the 90's when they were the smallest minority group in the country?

    While many of these scenario's flirt with extremes, it does bring into the spotlight the issue of nationalistic pride and representation and while many people would be upset and angry if such scenario's had come to be, after their emotions had had time to subside, THE ULTIMATE QUESTION would be:

    How the hell was such a situation allowed to develop in the first place and why weren't step's taken at an early stage to arrest this development?

    This is where the quota's debate is currently standing in SA. Everybody is up and arms about quota's but no-one wants to acknowledge the sequence of events that brought us to this point in time. Quota's and national representation are not a new issue in the South Africa cricket context. Its been around for 20+ years.

    When then president FW De Klerk announced the dismantling of apartheid and the release of Nelson Mandela from prison in 1990, CSA started the process of re-integration into world cricket but the members of the ICC were still skeptic. The ICC deferred SA's re-entry to the sub-continent teams and the West Indies because it was to them that the the establishment of Apartheid meant the most offense. At first they were hesitant but then CSA approached Nelson Mandela and with a little bit of Madiba magic and the greasing of palm's with diplomatic good will and promises of transformation, the ICC accepted us back. That was our first commitment as a cricketing union/fraternity to change and it was sealed with our first tour to India and West Indies...itself a momentous event because it was a competition between a SA team coming to terms with its Apartheid heritage and a non-white team.

    Fast forward to 1996/1999 and in the latter part of Nelson Mandela's presidency and the start of Thabo Mbeki's presidency, the country got together for a big Indaba and from that came the policy/theme: "We as a country recognize and acknowledge the wrongs of apartheid and together we must implement suitable measures at all levels of our social sphere to correct this". Hence, AA and BEE was born and transformation sports became big talking points. There was a lot of huff and puff from many spheres of the country but the government made big threatening noises and everyone fell into line.

    Fast forward to 1999-2000. Hansie Cronje threatens to resign in protest if quota's are implemented in the National team. It was a massive controversy because Hansie was a very popular captain of Afrikaner stock (this in itself a contentious point because it invoked images of the past where an Afrikaner was telling the ANC where they could and could not get off) and there was a worry that the conflict would escalate threatening to stir up old apartheid wounds and racial intolerance. It was tense for a while with even the Presidency getting involved but thankfully, calmer heads prevailed. The government backed off but not without wringing concessions from then UCBSA (the pre cursor organisation to CSA) that they would transform and put transformation at the center of their agenda in whatever they do.

    Fast forward to 2003-2008. White cricketers leaving the country to pursue cricket careers elsewhere...many of them citing quota's most notable of them being Kevin Peterson. Jacques Rudolf makes allegation's that "quota's" are keeping him out of the team. Pressure to make Ashwell Prince vice-captain and eventually captain after Smith. Ashwell Prince leads a contingent of non-white SA cricketers in saying that they don't want to be quota players and want to be there are merit and they don't want to be used as political capital to fund a debate that is negative to their careers and toxic to the SA cricket environment. Makhaya Ntini doing well...becomes the de facto poster child of transformation in CSA and government happy with this. Hashim Amla debuted amidst accusation that he is a quota player and fails miserably with lots of people feeling vindicated in their argument that quota's should be abolished. He makes a comeback though to become the cricketer many of us so much love. Mondi Zondeki, Mfuneko Ngam and Lonwabo Tsotsobe make test debutes to luke-warm receptions.

    Fast forward to the early 2010's. Transformation is back on the government agenda and everyone is obligated to have a show and tell with regards to what they have done to aid transformation. Soccer was at the forefront and everyone has access to the sport and everyone generally agreed transformation and representation wasn't an issue. Rugby was worrying for a while but with the appointment of Pieter de Villiers as Head Coach of the Springboks, it was seen as progress. There were lots of mutterings of "quota coach" and while his reign as coach was certainly colorful, he had some success against the all blacks and as any SAF rugby fan will tell you, apart from winning the world cup, that's the only measure of coach that counts in this country. On the sidelines, millions upon millions of Rand was being pumped into grass roots rugby in the Eastern Cape, Rural Western Cape and Kwa-Zulu natal (traditional non-white strongholds) and in the process changing Rugby from the most hated sport in SA, to the second most popular with lots of black people having represented the Springboks and Super rugby teams. Rugby is most probably the success story in the transformation battle because they are achieving there transformation mandate while still being one of the top teams in the world. And then we get cricket which when compared to the other 2, is the problem child of the South African sporting transformation landscape. When you tally up the achievements of CSA in our countries transformation battle, CSA list Makhaya Ntini, Mfuneko Ngam, Thami Tsolokile, Lonwabo Tsotsobe as the only black african's to have played at the test team. Its even worse on the cricket administration side with few black administrators having been appointed and Gerald Majola widely being criticized as a black figurehead meant to be displayed as transformation window dressing. The fact that he is damn corrupt does not help much either and in fingering Ali Bacher and other director's for paying themselves million rand bonuses spawns rumours that CSA is a vehicle for pro-white get rich quick schemes.

    Fast forward to now. The first African black CSA selector (Linda Zondi) was appointed. The first black franchise coach appointed (Geoff Toyana) and the first non white Saffa coach appointed (Russell Domingo). It only took 21 years. Rumors floating around that Graeme Smith threatened to quit if Thami was selected in the national test team. The minister of sport Fikile Mbalula was ambushed on Metro FM (the most popular and biggest African black based radio station in the country) and asked if the Graeme Smith rumors are true and lots of listeners were phoning in and huffing and puffing saying that South African Cricket has, and continues to show the South African public the middle finger when it comes to fielding a team that is representative of the country as whole. Mbalula then stated that if that's how Smith feel's, then he can resign (and implied under that statement was the feeling of "we won't miss you") with the listeners giving a digital hand of applause to the minister. CSA denies and refutes all rumors and allegations stating that its patently untrue! Most people believe otherwise.

    If we had to investigate this timeline of events and identify critical points, the incidents involving Hansie Cronje should of had alarm bells ringing and then already structures, policies, infrastructure and relief programs could have been put in place. The benefit of that would have been that by now, the first wave of Black African players based on merit would be knocking on the Protea's door and we wouldn't even be having this quota's discussion.

    Instead, we are all screaming at each other in the country with heated emotions and the only loser is cricket.

    Corruption, greed, complacency, prejudice, inflated bureaucracy, racism, red tape, status quo preservation, ignorance, nepotism, cronyism...these are the words and actions that got us into this ****-hole. The situation is even being more more aggravated by the current ANC government which has adopted of policy "If you don't want to listen, then you must feel" and CSA is definitely feeling it as you might have noticed with their recent implementation of the quota system at franchise/provincial level cricket.

    In leadership, you can delegate responsibility, but you can't delegate accountability and in this issue, CSA and its predecessor The United Cricket Board of South Africa, should be put front and center in the firing line to be held accountable. In trying to understand the issues that led up to this point in time, we should rather seek to line up all CSA's current and previous CEO's and director's and ask them why we find ourselves at this juncture and once we have those answers, bloody shoot them for the crime of being a ****-ing idiot. Personally I would like to see a Presidential Executive Commission of Inquiry instituted into all of CSA's and UCBSA decisions, finances and history and I would like offenders to be named and shamed and where there are instances of corruption, extreme negligence, cronyism and nepotism, offenders should be prosecuted.
    Last edited by Unomaas; 10-01-2014 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #90
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    Long response there dude, but it's clear that you have strong feelings on the subject, as do I.

    Look, transformation is vital, I'm not agreeing with you. But the point is, CSA is not keeping blacks out the Test side on purpose.

    Here's my challenge to you, select a representative SA side now, to face Aus in Feb. Who would you pick?

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