indian pace

[krkode]

When I say "fear in a batsman's heart," I don't just mean fear of being hurt. I mean fear of being out.

If you look at it that way, I'm sure every decent batsman has his fears.

And I agree, it's not all about speed, but how you use everything that you have or you bring for yourself. Look at McGrath and Pollock and look at Sami and Akhtar. I'd say two very different leagues and I'd say you'd agree with me on that.

 

[Eclipse]

Trescothick admited after the WACA test last year when Lee got him out in the second inning's with a spell of some extreamly quick bouncers that it was quote "genuinly scary having to face that bowling on this pitch"

I think somtimes batsman do get scared even now day's but at least they know the most that will happen to them is probably just bad brusing or a broken finger if they are unlucky.

 

[warrioryohannan]

No decent batsman is scared of a bowler any more, there's too much protective equipment. The only injuries occur when you're unlucky enough to have it pierced, which a medium-pacer will do as easily and cause as much damage as a 95mph-er. Eg the recent Gibbs injury, inflicted by a ball of, IIRR, 131.something kph, from Drakes.
Just bowling fast simply doesn't work in cricket any more. That's why Mohammad Sami continues to be so ineffective in Tests. It's also why Australia and Sri Lanka had no trouble whatsoever with Shane Bond in their Test-series', and I don't doubt India would have been exactly the same had they had the chance - Bond escaped through injury, as Harmison has done against Sri Lanka. And he's another example.

There are some good batsmen who aren't too convincing when facing express fast bowlers. Express pace is handy if you get the line and length right. Sami bowls 30 wides and 20 no balls in one innings, no wonder he's so ineffective, but Shoaib Akhter has been very effective at test level, and he did well against Australia in the last series.
Another example is of Brett Lee, who is an important member of Aus test team.

 

[Richard]

Yes, and Brett Lee has been a phenominally succesful Test bowler, hasn't he? Since 2001, taking Test wickets at nearly 40. Fantastic.
Shoaib Akhtar has been effective at Test-level because he's a high-quality swing bowler, not because he can bowl at 95 mph, exactly the same as Waqar Younis.

 

[Richard]

When I say "fear in a batsman's heart," I don't just mean fear of being hurt. I mean fear of being out.

If you look at it that way, I'm sure every decent batsman has his fears.

And I agree, it's not all about speed, but how you use everything that you have or you bring for yourself. Look at McGrath and Pollock and look at Sami and Akhtar. I'd say two very different leagues and I'd say you'd agree with me on that.

McGrath and Pollock are slightly different to Akhtar - two seam bowlers and one swing bowler. Sami is simply a run and no-ball machine.
So if you ask me it goes something like this:
Pollock, McGrath
Akhtar






Sami, Lee, Harmison, Bond, etc.

 

[Richard]

Trescothick admited after the WACA test last year when Lee got him out in the second inning's with a spell of some extreamly quick bouncers that it was quote "genuinly scary having to face that bowling on this pitch"

Yes, and that was Trescothick, and how well did he do in that series and his subsequent 6 Tests?
Did any batsmen who actually scored some runs in that period find they were scared of Lee? No, I think not. Even after he nearly killed Alex Tudor. Even in that match, on a pitch Richard Winter called the quickest since the 1980s, Lee could take no more than 5 wickets at 30, one of them being Harmison.

 

[Eclipse]

Yes, and that was Trescothick, and how well did he do in that series and his subsequent 6 Tests?
Did any batsmen who actually scored some runs in that period find they were scared of Lee? No, I think not. Even after he nearly killed Alex Tudor. Even in that match, on a pitch Richard Winter called the quickest since the 1980s, Lee could take no more than 5 wickets at 30, one of them being Harmison.

Settle down what's your problem??

I was not disputing the fact you need more than just speed to be a good test bowler. I agree that Lee is a rather crappy test bowler at the moment as well.

All I was doing was pointing out that maybe your statment that "No decent batsman is scared of a bowler any more" may not be 100% correct.

 

[krkode]

Yes, and Brett Lee has been a phenominally succesful Test bowler, hasn't he? Since 2001, taking Test wickets at nearly 40. Fantastic.
Shoaib Akhtar has been effective at Test-level because he's a high-quality swing bowler, not because he can bowl at 95 mph, exactly the same as Waqar Younis.

And we all should know the reason for that. Lee's limited success in test matches is due to underdevelopment/lack of penetrative bowling. He can rattle the stumps of every tail ender in the world, and the occasional opening batsman, but other than that, he hasn't been as successful in tests as the average Aussie bowler. That said, his ODI success, I guess, can be attributed to the batsman's need for runs, and his speed-machine deliveries. A desperate batsman + fast bowling = good stuff for the bowler.

 

[warrioryohannan]

Yes, and Brett Lee has been a phenominally succesful Test bowler, hasn't he? Since 2001, taking Test wickets at nearly 40. Fantastic.

He has been performing poorly since some time (thats why i said in one of my earlier post that the comming test b/w Ind and Aus will be a test of Lee's ability), however Lee was impressive before that, and i think he has the potential to prove his critics wrong in future.

 

[warrioryohannan]

Shoaib Akhtar has been effective at Test-level because he's a high-quality swing bowler, not because he can bowl at 95 mph, exactly the same as Waqar Younis.

Wrong! Akhter has been successful because he can swing the ball while bowling at 95 +
When Akhter destroyed the Aussie batting order in a test at Sharjah with a spell of 5- 25 or so, Steven waugh siad that there is little a batsman can do when someone is getting reverse swing at such a pace.

I never said that pace alone is enough, it is "handy" if you can maintain a line and length and can swing the ball too.

 

[Eclipse]

Wrong! Akhter has been successful because he can swing the ball while bowling at 95 +
When Akhter destroyed the Aussie batting order in a test at Sharjah with a spell of 5- 25 or so, Steven waugh siad that there is little a batsman can do when someone is getting reverse swing at such a pace.

But accuracy is the main reason he has been doing well in test cricket latley.

Brett Lee swing's the ball as well as anyone but without putting it in the right place he is not that effective.

He wll get back to his best form if he learn's a thing or two about line and length.

 

[CDAK]

So you liked Yohannan but didn't like Salvi?
Yohannan's top pace is about 130 kph. Salvi I haven't a clue about but I can't conceive he's much slower. Certainly it seems pretty sure he's far less accurate.
The reason Yohannan is not in the picture now is for the same reason that T. Kumaran and many other rubbish Indian seamers aren't - their lack of skill being exposed.

Tinu is not in the team, not because of his lack of speed(his max is 136 km/hr and not just 130.), but due to lack of veriety.He does well with his incoming but can't even bowl an outgoing one.I heard he is having a bad domestic cricket season.

He will come back soon(is under Lillee's coaching in MRF PF now).He is the tallest Indian bowler now on the scene so , I hope if comes back with more numbers, then India would sure have a test opening bowler.( He is the more accurate than anyother bowler who r playing now.) So don't write him off...
Please don't compare Kumaran to Tinu...it never matches.

 

[Richard]

Tinu is not in the team, not because of his lack of speed(his max is 136 km/hr and not just 130.), but due to lack of veriety.He does well with his incoming but can't even bowl an outgoing one.I heard he is having a bad domestic cricket season.

He will come back soon(is under Lillee's coaching in MRF PF now).He is the tallest Indian bowler now on the scene so , I hope if comes back with more numbers, then India would sure have a test opening bowler.( He is the more accurate than anyother bowler who r playing now.) So don't write him off...
Please don't compare Kumaran to Tinu...it never matches.

I have to get this - you are calling Tinu Yohannan accurate? The same Tinu Yohannan who went for 50 off 5 overs (albeit in a 25-over slog) and 36 of 5 in his next spell?
I have seen most of Yohannan's international career and if there is one thing he is not it is accurate. I would say Kumaran, Yohannan, Siddiqui, Bhandari, Balaji, Pathan - they all fall into roughly the same category - a poor man's Venkatesh Prasad. Srinath was a class above the rest of the Indian seamers, Agarkar keeps hinting that he might fulfill his potential, but Prasad was sort of just better than the normal mediocrity. I honestly can't comment much on Aavishkar Salvi because I've never seen him bowl but from what I've read he seems pretty good. Khan and Nehra seem just about Prasad-class.
Yohannan might be able to bowl an in-dipper but unless he improves his accuracy he'll never be close to international class, even if he can develop and away-dipper. The fastest I've seen him timed at is 133, nowhere near as quick as Srinath, but even if he could bowl 145 he still wouldn't be very good.

 

[Richard]

But accuracy is the main reason he has been doing well in test cricket latley.

Brett Lee swing's the ball as well as anyone but without putting it in the right place he is not that effective.

He wll get back to his best form if he learn's a thing or two about line and length.

That's a big if. Not going to say it's impossible, but I'd be surprised if Lee started bowling accurately.
The biggest difference between Lee and Akhtar is Akhtar's accuracy, which has been especially evident since WC2003 (it was evident for Durham in England, too). That is what I have said ever since I learned Lee had got some swing back.

 

[Richard]

Settle down what's your problem??

I was not disputing the fact you need more than just speed to be a good test bowler. I agree that Lee is a rather crappy test bowler at the moment as well.

All I was doing was pointing out that maybe your statment that "No decent batsman is scared of a bowler any more" may not be 100% correct.

Well maybe I should have said "international class batsman", not "decent batsman".
I don't rate Trescothick as an international standard batsman.
However, most top-level club batsmen are more than decent, and I'd be surprised if they would relish the prospect of facing Lee even on the slowest, most consistent pitch you can get.

 

[Richard]

He has been performing poorly since some time (thats why i said in one of my earlier post that the comming test b/w Ind and Aus will be a test of Lee's ability), however Lee was impressive before that, and i think he has the potential to prove his critics wrong in future.

Maybe; I never saw him before his injury but I really don't see how he could just lose a whole load of accuracy like *that*. Nor do I see how 3 years of almost non-stop failure can just suddenly change.
Maybe I'll be wrong but I'll be surprised if Lee ever becomes an effective Test bowler.

 

[Richard]

Wrong! Akhter has been successful because he can swing the ball while bowling at 95 +
When Akhter destroyed the Aussie batting order in a test at Sharjah with a spell of 5- 25 or so, Steven waugh siad that there is little a batsman can do when someone is getting reverse swing at such a pace.

I never said that pace alone is enough, it is "handy" if you can maintain a line and length and can swing the ball too.

Fair enough, but Akhtar has been succesful primarily because of swing; the fact that he bowls at 95 mph turns him from a good bowler into a fantastic one.
Swinging (whether reverse or conventional, in or out), well-pitched deliveries at 95 mph are just about unplayable, Stephen Waugh is quite right about that. Just a shame Shoaib can't do it more consistently. We'll wait and see him in The Second Test but if Shabbir got injured for that I wouldn't bet against him taking 10 in an innings, especially if we get some proper Kiwi conditions, he's been so consistent after WC2003. The only Tests he's played have been against Bangladesh.

 

[Craig]

Very unlikely for Shabbir will get injuried, unlikely we will get proper Kiwi conditions (NZ may even play two spinners in this upcoming Test) and very wishful thinking that he will get all ten.

 

[CDAK]

I have to get this - you are calling Tinu Yohannan accurate? The same Tinu Yohannan who went for 50 off 5 overs (albeit in a 25-over slog) and 36 of 5 in his next spell?
I have seen most of Yohannan's international career and if there is one thing he is not it is accurate. I would say Kumaran, Yohannan, Siddiqui, Bhandari, Balaji, Pathan - they all fall into roughly the same category - a poor man's Venkatesh Prasad. Srinath was a class above the rest of the Indian seamers, Agarkar keeps hinting that he might fulfill his potential, but Prasad was sort of just better than the normal mediocrity. I honestly can't comment much on Aavishkar Salvi because I've never seen him bowl but from what I've read he seems pretty good. Khan and Nehra seem just about Prasad-class.
Yohannan might be able to bowl an in-dipper but unless he improves his accuracy he'll never be close to international class, even if he can develop and away-dipper. The fastest I've seen him timed at is 133, nowhere near as quick as Srinath, but even if he could bowl 145 he still wouldn't be very good.

I agree with most of ur points.But how can u rate somebody who hasn't even played 10 international games? U told about 2 expensive spells..., even the accurate king McGrath is smashed like that in onedayers at times..and if this is the criterion for accuracy measurement, then AA can never be an international bowler.
Zaheer is in much higher level than Prasad. Tinu is a genuine pace bowler and cannot be compared with Kumaran Siddiquie.He is comparable with Balaji.

 

[Richard]

Very unlikely for Shabbir will get injuried, unlikely we will get proper Kiwi conditions (NZ may even play two spinners in this upcoming Test) and very wishful thinking that he will get all ten.

Who's going to be the next spinner, then? Not Wiseman again, please! And please not Brooke Walker either.
I wouldn't say it was wishful thinking that he'd get all 10 if Shabbir got injured and green conditions were produced. The rest of the Pakistani attack is uninspiring at best and Shoaib has been bowling superbly in conditions unfavourable to seam recently. Just imagine what he'd be like in conditions that helped seam and conventional swing (ie from ball 1).