The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

I don't think there's much of a difference between Kallis and Sobers if you remove strike rate. Similar for Hammond as a bat, but he is going to be called on to bowl a fair amount considering he's in the slow sr team.

Agree on the constituency vs brilliance with the ball. With the bat I'm not sure there would be too much difference if you don't consider the sr itself. The huge scores that guys like Lara and Sehwag made won't be coming against this type of bowling. Not disagreeing, just don't think it would be a big factor like the bowling

The difference between Kallis and Sobers is huge. There is a case to be made for Sobers to be rated as the 2nd best after Bradman. On batting alone he gets into an all-time XI. Sobers was the definition of a match-winner. Kallis generally went under the radar during his entire career and was always overshadowed by better bats like Sachin, Lara, Ponting and Dravid whilst Sobers took a game by the throat and won matches. Sobers not only has a higher average but the manner in which he scored is also important. Sobers also averaged 70 for a good decade IIRC. No contest the better bat. He belongs in the highest tier of middle-order bats, the one just below Bradman along with the likes of Tendulkar, Viv, and Greg Chappell.

Sobers' bowling is better too. Kallis never took on the same kind of workload. This is reflected in their WPM.

Their fielding is a closer call and requires more subjectivity so I wont comment on that. Both reputed to have been excellent.

 

[trundler]

Aside from all of that, there is also the subjective argument that Sobers was better to watch, more exciting and had more flair. I've read plenty a cricket writers describe Sobers as being the best they'd watch but almost no one is going to say the same for Kallis.

 

[Borges]

Their fielding is a closer call and requires more subjectivity so I wont comment on that. Both reputed to have been excellent.

Sobers was excellent fielding in any position.
Made it look so easy; took catches that wouldn't even have been considered as chances if it were mere human beings instead of Sobers.

 

[trundler]

I've seen footage of a remarkable short-leg catch. He's probably in the top handful of fielders, ever. Kallis was a top-notch slip catcher too, though. Kallis doesn't even take 2 wickets per match and bowls only 20 overs. That's why I consider him a batsman who can bowl, rather than a Sobers-esque all-rounder.

 

[Bolo]

I rate Sobers the second best with the bat. But a large part of why Sobers is rated high and Kallis low is because of the SR, as you seem to be arguing. I said there isn't much of a difference between the two if you remove the SR- it's not really a measure you should be holding in such regard when you are specifically constructing parameters of team composition around SR.

If you are looking at the difference in their numbers, Sobers feasted on docile home tracks (average 66). Kallis didn't have this luxury and outperformed him away.

Sobers heavier bowling workload makes him a greater player, but it doesn't make him a more useful one in the context of an ATG side. You want both players bowling as few as possible. It would be meaningful if Kallis wasn't capable of putting in hard yards on flat pitches (no matter how good your bowling, they will struggle from time to time), but he was. He did the majority of his bowling at the times his team was struggling to take wickets and stayed out of it when the going was easy, except to give teamates a quick break.

Because there is always someone who takes comments out of context and sees this type of discussion as a blasphemous personal attack on a player, I want to make it clear that I hold Sobers in higher regard than Kallis. He just isn't too far ahead within the constructs of these team parameters whereby it would be non-sensensical to give flair, SR, WPM etc. its regular consideration.

I think Kallis was probably the best slip fielder I've seen, but nothing special at best elsewhere. Sobers would have been good anywhere. Depends how important you think slips are I guess.

 

[trundler]

I rate Sobers the second best with the bat. But a large part of why Sobers is rated high and Kallis low is because of the SR, as you seem to be arguing. I said there isn't much of a difference between the two if you remove the SR- it's not really a measure you should be holding in such regard when you are specifically constructing parameters of team composition around SR.

If you are looking at the difference in their numbers, Sobers feasted on docile home tracks (average 66). Kallis didn't have this luxury and outperformed him away.

Sobers heavier bowling workload makes him a greater player, but it doesn't make him a more useful one in the context of an ATG side. You want both players bowling as few as possible. It would be meaningful if Kallis wasn't capable of putting in hard yards on flat pitches (no matter how good your bowling, they will struggle from time to time), but he was. He did the majority of his bowling at the times his team was struggling to take wickets and stayed out of it when the going was easy, except to give teamates a quick break.

Because there is always someone who takes comments out of context and sees this type of discussion as a blasphemous personal attack on a player, I want to make it clear that I hold Sobers in higher regard than Kallis. He just isn't too far ahead within the constructs of these team parameters whereby it would be non-sensensical to give flair, SR, WPM etc. its regular consideration.

I think Kallis was probably the best slip fielder I've seen, but nothing special at best elsewhere. Sobers would have been good anywhere. Depends how important you think slips are I guess.

All of that's fair but Kallis's average doesn't get him in the averages XI. Hammond's does.

 

[Bolo]

All of that's fair but Kallis's average doesn't get him in the averages XI. Hammond's does.

Ya, they are competing for the Sobers slot though- it's an allround position, not a batting one. Kallis has better allround averages than Hammond

 

[trundler]

Fine, I'll concede that since either way there's not much difference and you get a blocky mcblockson. Who wins then

 

[Bolo]

As opposed to the hyper-agressive Hammond?

 

[trundler]

As opposed to the hyper-agressive Hammond?

Haha, was literally my point mate. Either way you get blocky mcblockson. Which XI wins then?

 

[Bolo]

Really even between them if you ignore the conditions question. High SR ahead on the middle order, low ahead on the openers. Not much to choose between them on the bowlers. Maybe a small advantage to the aggressive team because of Murali- it's hard to judge older spinners.

I'd back the aggressive team against a third party. They would implode more often, but nobody is forcing draws against them.

 

[Red]

Good idea, so now the SR team is:
Trumper, Sehwag, The Don, Viv, Lara, Sobers, Gilly, Marshall, Steyn, Waqar, Murali
Average team is:
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Bradman, Headley, G Pollock, Kallis, Gilly,Davidson, Marshall, Laker, Ambrose

Strike rate team's overall average approx: 346

Average team's overall average approx: 390

 

[trundler]

Australian ATVG XI
Slater
Langer
Hassett
M Waugh
Martyn
M Clarke
Cant decide on the 'keeper. Is Haddin good enough? Is Grout too good for this XI?
Alderman
Thomson
McDermott
Macgill

Perhaps there's a recency bias here. Maybe Red HIll and others can help.

 

[CricAddict]

Australian ATVG XI
Slater
Langer
Hassett
M Waugh
Martyn
M Clarke
Cant decide on the 'keeper. Is Haddin good enough? Is Grout too good for this XI?
Alderman
Thomson
McDermott
Macgill

Perhaps there's a recency bias here. Maybe Red HIll and others can help.

Think you should just take the Australia A XI from the list Nufan prepared.

 

[trundler]

Yeah but you can easily make 2 great XIs for Australia. It's hard to fit Ponting in the first one.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Yeah but you can easily make 2 great XIs for Australia. It's hard to fit Ponting in the first one.

Huh? Are Thommo, Billy, Terry and Stewie with M Waugh as 5th great now? Wake me up when September ends.

 

[trundler]

Huh? Are Thommo, Billy, Terry and Stewie with M Waugh as 5th great now? Wake me up when September ends.

Huh? A 2nd XI would have 2 ATG openers like Lawry, and Simpson. Guys like Harvey and S Waugh in the middle order, Healy as the 'keeper' and O'Reilly, Davidson etc as bowlers. All ATGs, not ATVGs.

 

[Bolo]

Nothing wrong with a recency bias in a team that you are not trying to pick the best in. Needs more Gillespie though, and a guy that earned the nickname of terracotta gloves isn't an atvg. Healy I guess- you are picking a guy to keep and bat, so his keeping alone doesn't disqualify him.

Benaud above McGill, depending on if you think he is only an atvg.

 

[jimmy101]

I'm part of the Trumper/Simpson camp on this one. After that I'd opt for Ponsford/Lawry, and then Morris/Hayden.

 

[trundler]

For an ATG XI or an ATVG XI? For the former I'd have Trumper and Morris/Ponsford.