Matty Hayden v SUnil Gavaskar - better test opener ?

[thierry henry]

No, they just declined. Tendulkar is not the player he once was and hasn't been since 2003. It's as simple as that.

I think for a large chunk of Sachin's career there have been 7 or 8 (or more) of his contemporaries superior to him...shouldn't that count for something (or even quite a lot!?)

 

[Richard]

That's one way of looking at it

Could also say that Jayawardene balances out being worse than others away, by being better than they are at home...

I don't see it as a balancing act. I see it that the tough stuff counts for waaaaaay more than the easy stuff.

I don't really rate batsmen who've performed only in easy conditions terribly highly. And until very recently that was all Matthew Hayden had ever done.

 

[Precambrian]

That's one way of looking at it

Could also say that Jayawardene balances out being worse than others away, by being better than they are at home...

Nah, the small gain in his average over others due to his home performances are well negated by his mediocrity outside Lanka.

But again, He's been one of the best SL batsmen of all time.

 

[Richard]

I think for a large chunk of Sachin's career there have been 7 or 8 (or more) of his contemporaries superior to him...shouldn't that count for something (or even quite a lot!?)

Between 1994 and 2002 there was no better batsmen on Earth than Tendulkar. That much is, for mine, irrefutable.

The only better player between 1990 and 1994 was Graham Gooch for my money; even since 2003 there haven't been that many, and as I say, I don't really attach any great weight to this period, as he'd been so good for so long previously.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It's not a go at you specifically, you seem to be one of many with a bias towards West Indian cricket.

Maybe it's just a coincidence but Richards and Sobers in particular are the two cricketers who are most often romantically perceived as transcending any rational evaluation of their records/stats/actual performances

.......or maybe the greater coincidence lies in the fact they just happen to be two of the greatest cricketers of all time........

 

[NZTailender]

I don't really rate batsmen who've performed only in easy conditions terribly highly. And until very recently that was all Matthew Hayden had ever done.

I rate those who do higher than those who don't. Weirdest argument - someone isn't good because they're good at something.

 

[Precambrian]

I think for a large chunk of Sachin's career there have been 7 or 8 (or more) of his contemporaries superior to him...shouldn't that count for something (or even quite a lot!?)

AWTA. But for another big part of his career he's been the best.

Also, these 7 or 8 guys were'nt permanently above him, and that's because he's been consistent.

 

[Richard]

I rate those who do higher than those who don't. Weirdest argument - someone isn't good because they're good at something.

Obviously performance in easy conditions only > no performance under any circumstances, but that isn't the argument being made. I'm not saying Runako Morton or Thilina Kandamby are better than Hayden.

 

[thierry henry]

Between 1994 and 2002 there was no better batsmen on Earth than Tendulkar. That much is, for mine, irrefutable.

The only better player between 1990 and 1994 was Graham Gooch for my money; even since 2003 there haven't been that many, and as I say, I don't really attach any great weight to this period, as he'd been so good for so long previously.

You make it sound as though the bit where Sachin was superior is so much more substantial than the bit where his contemporaries were superior

The way that his average has converged with the averages of his contemporaries would suggest that he has been superior to Dravid/Ponting/Hayden etc, for roughly the same amount of time that they have been superior to him

Perhaps it is not merely a question of time, but a question of matches played in that time....but then again, I don't take anything away from players who are able to keep performing with a congested schedule...

 

[thierry henry]

Nah, the small gain in his average over others due to his home performances are well negated by his mediocrity outside Lanka. .

Umm..we are talking (theoretically) about comparing him to players with the same (or similar) overall averages

Therefore I am referring to the difference in his home average over others being= the difference in his away average under others

 

[Richard]

You make it sound as though the bit where Sachin was superior is so much more substantial than the bit where his contemporaries were superior

The way that his average has converged with the averages of his contemporaries would suggest that he has been superior to Dravid/Ponting/Hayden etc, for roughly the same amount of time that they have been superior to him

It isn't though. 12 years to 4 or 5 is nothing.

Dravid is the only player of those who've scored heavily since 2001/02 who is worthy of comparison with Tendulkar IMO.

BTW why do you pop-up to argue this crap when we've not seen you for months when you could've been talking your usual mixture or sense and moresense?

 

[thierry henry]

.......or maybe the greater coincidence lies in the fact they just happen to be two of the greatest cricketers of all time........

No....you could throw another 20 or 30 greats in so I don't see how it's much of a coincidence that two of them are West Indian

I do however think it's a coincidence that the two players who are praised so much above and beyond what they actually achieved on paper are both West Indians often applauded for the flair and excitement (and all that crap, lol) that they brought to the game.

 

[thierry henry]

It isn't though. 12 years to 4 or 5 is nothing.

I won't repeat the contents of my previous post because I know you are capable of a little simple (and certainly not so simple) statistical analysis

It would seem that somehow the "flat track bullies" have been able to claw back 12 years within the space of 4 or 5...either they have been much more superior to Tendulkar than Tendulkar ever was to them, or there is so much more test cricket played these days that....you'd have to start asking questions about how much could be taken from an era when test appearance were so sporadic?

Essentially I don't think it's so obvious that, say, 60 tests worth of appearances over 12 years is more valuable than 60 tests worth over 5 years

 

[Lillian Thomson]

No....you could throw another 20 or 30 greats in so I don't see how it's much of a coincidence that two of them are West Indian

I do however think it's a coincidence that the two players who are praised so much above and beyond what they actually achieved on paper are both West Indians often applauded for the flair and excitement (and all that crap, lol) that they brought to the game.

Considering that Garry Sobers "on paper" achieved enough to make him one of the top 10 batsman of all time even without his bowling and fielding that's a fairly nonsensical statement.

 

[Richard]

I really CBA doing this thing for perhaps the 103,425th time TBH. I know you don't post as often as you should, but... I just don't have the will.

I don't think I'm going to bother reading this thread from now on, and hopefully it'll be closed sooner rather than later. Hayden threads just have no use on CW IMO, they're nought but a recipe for disaster, and also move far too fast for anyone to have much hope of keeping track of the discussion.

 

[thierry henry]

Considering that Garry Sobers "on paper" achieved enough to make him one of the top 10 batsman of all time even without his bowling and fielding that's a fairly nonsensical statement.

Jacques Kallis.........

And I'm particularly referring to Sobers' bowling tbh

 

[thierry henry]

I don't think I'm going to bother reading this thread from now on, and hopefully it'll be closed sooner rather than later.

As long as there's always someone around to argue in the alternative (i.e. the runs scored by batsman in the last 6 or 7 years actually count, people who watched cricket in the olden days don't have irrefutable knowledge that all the players then were much better than their modern equivalents, etc) ,my work is done

 

[Lillian Thomson]

,my work is done

Assuming your work was making yourself look a complete tit, then I wouldn't disagree.

 

[thierry henry]

Assuming your work was making yourself look a complete tit, then I wouldn't disagree.

I feel fairly satisfied that yourself and archie were on the scene immediately to troll and add nothing to the thread. I'm doing something right.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

tbh generally when I watch old cricket it looks like a load of rubbish and I can't take it seriously at all..

I feel fairly satisfied that yourself and archie were on the scene immediately to troll and add nothing to the thread. I'm doing something right.