NZ Top Order Woes

[Bazza]

Alec Stewart averages 31.51 from 161 ODIs. He averages 33.50 as wicketkeeper (129 ODIs), and 33.58 when opening (89 ODIs). I would call that a success. The only thing he never managed to carry off successfully was being captain (22.15 from 40 ODIs). Maybe it was the burden of doing all three jobs - I mean alot of players' individual contributions suffer when they take over the captaincy.

In fact the best part is I put in as keeper AND opening the batting: 35.12 from 76 ODIs. So I would definitely call that a success - better than Gilchrist. Now lets look at keeper AND opening AND not as captain; 42.26 from 48 ODIs, 13x50s, 4x100s.
Yep, I think Stewie carried that off quite nicely thankyou very much.

 

[Rik]

Alec Stewart averages 31.51 from 161 ODIs. He averages 33.50 as wicketkeeper (129 ODIs), and 33.58 when opening (89 ODIs). I would call that a success. The only thing he never managed to carry off successfully was being captain (22.15 from 40 ODIs). Maybe it was the burden of doing all three jobs - I mean alot of players' individual contributions suffer when they take over the captaincy.

In fact the best part is I put in as keeper AND opening the batting: 35.12 from 76 ODIs. So I would definitely call that a success - better than Gilchrist. Now lets look at keeper AND opening AND not as captain; 42.26 from 48 ODIs, 13x50s, 4x100s.
Yep, I think Stewie carried that off quite nicely thankyou very much.

Now can you truthfully say that you did that because you think he's a great player...and not at all to do with the fact that you share a last name?

 

[Rik]

Just fixed it - hitchcock

Ta James

Hitchcock Hitchcock Hitchcock

 

[Bazza]

Now can you truthfully say that you did that because you think he's a great player...and not at all to do with the fact that you share a last name?

Well I gotta defend the family name!

Not really - I just did it to prove Tim wrong!! :P

OK I admit it, I am a big fan of Stewart and think alot of the criticism levelled at him recently is most unfair.

 

[Rik]

Well I gotta defend the family name!

Not really - I just did it to prove Tim wrong!! :P

OK I admit it, I am a big fan of Stewart and think alot of the criticism levelled at him recently is most unfair.

Well after averaging over 40 in the Ashes series I don't know why there is a problem with England playing Stewart. I think Foster would have dropped more catches than Stewart did if he had played through the series. I'm not so sure about Stewart in ODIs now though, although he is a better batsman than Chris Read, his oppertunities whilst batting are fewer and he has less time to play himself in as he is batting down the order. Also I would rate Read as a better keeper and since he bats down the order for Notts or used as a pitch hitter he is used to trying to score without much time to get his eye in. Maybe if England dropped Stewart from the ODI team to keep him playing longer in the Test team like the WIndies did for Curtly and Courtney? Then the selectors would have someone ready by 2007 and would still have the strongest Test Side till Stewart decides to retire, and they would stop getting all that bother about not giving a thought to the future from the press as a bonus.

 

[anzac]

ok so IMO NZ need a ODI opening partner for Astle, and another batsman in the ODI squad - nothing new there...but I also think they need to look at some candidates for the Test squad as well as cover for injuries & loss of form, as I do not see a lot of options being used other than the all rounders as per this last series.

Should Vincent continue to open in Tests if he is not doing so in ODIs - should he bat at No6 in the longer game????

are there any real opening contenders - what are their stats like & are they suitable for both forms of the game????

What has Bell's form been like????

are there other contenders for the top / middle order or are Vincent, Sinclair & Styris the best available options????

NZ now appears to have depth in the bowling & all rounder departments, but shallow in the batting.

I remember when there were a handful of batsmen who used to consistantly dominate in both forms of the domestic game season after season (like Crowe, Rutherford, Germon, Reid etc) & others still who consistantly put in good solid seasons such as J Crowe & a few others. These players would stand out from the rest as both starters and squad / fringe players for the Test & ODI squads. Are there any of these types around now or is NZ domestic cricket going thru a transition period re the batsmen???????

:ticking:

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

What has Bell's form been like????

If I were the NZ selectors, I wouldn't go back to Bell again. I'd consider Papps.

 

[sasnoz]

papps is not ready yet

 

[Tim]

Bell has tried about 7 batting techniques in his career, I think he's only 24..but I think his career is already over. His batting technique in the Australian series was heavily criticised & with the emergence of Michael Papps & Tim Mcintosh, I seriously doubt he's at the top of the list anymore.

Its more than likely Papps will go to Sri Lanka mid-year, for the last 2 seasons he's been putting the runs on the board as an opener. Last season he averaged around 42, so far this season he's averaged 70.

McIntosh is similar in size & frame to Fleming and has averaged 40 last year & 50 this season.

Vincent should definately not open, In the last couple of games he's proved he's more of a middle order batsmen who can get quick singles & rotate the strike quickly.

Astle's partner in the ODI form really has stumped me, Fleming IMO is not a long-term solution however I think he believes differently.
NZ just have far too many good middle order batsmen and not enough 1-4 batters. Thats why we're seeing Vincent & the like have their careers being turned upside down because the selectors are being forced to chop & change the lineup.

I have a feeling in the next 2 or 3 years looking at the NZ U19's with the likes of Jesse Ryder, Simon Allen, James Hill, Neil Broom & Ross Taylor that NZ's top order might build quite nicely.

 

[anzac]

I don't know that Fleming thinks his ODI future is as opener or if he is leading from the front when there is a lack of viable alternatives in the squad. It may be that he sees himself in this role as Captain until the selections are changed.

I am concenred that they are prepared to use Vincent at Test level and not at ODI, yet they are prepared to sacrifice the team Captain to cover this deficiency in their squad.

IMO you need a solid Opening pairing in both forms of the game to enable the middle & lower orders to do their stuff later on in the match. However if they are continually exposed early they will continue to be knocked over for bugger all.

Hopefully after the WC we will see a change in selection policy re Tests & ODI. At the moment the squads for each are very similar & this puts a lot of pressure on players who are struggling for form, or are being given different duties for each (Vincent & others). It may well be that they need to go back to picking horses for courses and selecting players for specific roles & attributes.

 

[anzac]

the problem with Papps as an option is that he is another 'keeper batsman - he averages well in both forms of the game but would the selectors play 2 'keepers in a run on side????? - if not then he is only an alternative for the likes of R Hart in the Test squad, and the Nevin / McCullum mix in the ODI squad - this then does nothing to strengthen the batting in the run on sides.....

do we need to look at going back to the likes of Spearman / Bell / Horne & Howell until the younger players come thru' & mature? This group are all aged 30ish (apart from Bell) & are possibly only make shift options for a couple of seasons. However all have previous International experience as Openers in both forms of the game (apart from Howell - ODI only), which is the achillies heal of the batting line-up.

At the moment it seems to be the batsmen in the 30ish age group who are putting the stats on the board consistantly enough to warrant selection, while the younger players show glimpses of what may yet come.

Spearman has about the best stats of anybody this season re high scores, batting average & strike rate for both forms of the game. At the moment both he and Papps seem to be the only stand out contenders in the batting departments.

other future options could include the Marshall boys from ND as well as the likes of Nicol from Auckland.

 

[Tim]

It's interesting that the NZ selectors have picked 18 year old Jesse Ryder in the North Island squad for the State of Origin Match.

Ryder is a hard hitting left-hander who opens for Central Districts, last year he scored 196 off around 240 balls for the NZ Academy against the Australian Academy so maybe he's inline for selection to Sri Lanka later in the year.

Rob Nicol has struggled this season at One day level, which will disappoint the selectors as his first class statistics are very good so far.

The other player who I think has seriously put himself back into the frame is Llorne Howell, he really has done well at the top of the order for Auckland blazing away at the start & I think there is still hope for him yet.

I saw Peter Fulton bat yesterday against Auckland & boy does he look good, you just get the feeling he'd never get out unless he played a reckless shot & it was unfortunate that he was run-out.
So NZ are developing a few options at the top of the order it seems.

 

[anzac]

we may be developing some talent for the future, but IMO the problem is we need at least 2 top order batsmen NOW!!!!

- an opener for both Tests & ODI, even if we have to go to 2 players as a specialist for each;
- another top order batsman for the OD game as a batting alternative for injury etc to the current top 4.

IMO just 5 specialist batsmen in a 15 man ODI squad is just asking for trouble, further more we do not seem to have too much batting depth / options so far as the Test squad is concerned.

As I have repeatedly said we have an abundance of talent in the lower orders, but they have not been given the protection from the top orders to enable them to develop & show their skills at International level - make shift top order collapses are exposing the middle / lower orders too soon, forcing them into defensive / innings building strategies, instead of being the icing on an already made cake!!!!

 

[Rik]

Spearman has about the best stats of anybody this season re high scores, batting average & strike rate for both forms of the game. At the moment both he and Papps seem to be the only stand out contenders in the batting departments.

I don't think Spearman will play for his country again. He looks like he's committed himself to Gloustershire for a while.

 

[Tim]

Rik's right. Spearman made a choice to play in England so he can no longer play for NZ.

I dunno whether the selectors would pick him anyway. He's pretty much a firstclass bully who can't convert his success at the highest level.

 

[Rik]

Rik's right. Spearman made a choice to play in England so he can no longer play for NZ.

I dunno whether the selectors would pick him anyway. He's pretty much a firstclass bully who can't convert his success at the highest level.

Spearman is playing under an EU Passport so he is not considered an Overseas Player. It would be rather odd if he claimed NZ status again and played for the national team...I'm sure there would be some sort of qualification period too.

 

[anzac]

oopps!!!

In my concern I had forgotten the earlier posts by you guys re Spearman's passport etc .........my apologies to all :duh:

looking at this years domestic form it looks like Papps / McIntosh options for the Test squad opener with Richardson, and Papps / Howell for the ODI squad opener with Astle.

In either form of the game if Papps were to get the nod I would initially use him as a specialist opener only, and not get him to keep wickets as well. McIntosh could then be used to cover the top order for the Test squad in a 6 - 4 batsmen / bowler split for the starting XI.

My initial thought would be to use Howell as ODI opener until Papps had settled into the Test team. I would also like to have one more specialist batting option for the middle order.

The other option would be to go with McIntosh as Test opener and Papps for ODIs.

 

[Kimbo]

Vincent looked in magnificent touch against canterbury the other day- never seen him hit the ball so hard... so much for push and run!