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What would it take for Joe Root to surpass Steve Smith as a Test Batter?

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
I don't think it ever happens. Graph below is how much better root and smith have been than other top 7 batters in there games overall, and since the end of the 2019 ashes (where I think we all agree Smith started to decline)

1788067828842.png
Have put a line graph below showing how Root and Smith would progress on this metric on a match by match basis, based on their respective performances from the 2019 Ashes (this is just before Root's post covid peak and just after Smith's 2019 ashes decline; Felt like an extrapolation that was generous to root and reflective of where both are at right now) and if neither retire ever it would take Root 120 games to pass Smith. If Smith retires at the end of the 2027 Ashes, Root could play another 150 tests and would still never come close (obviously he won't play 150 tests, just more as a realistic comparison because Smith won't play on forever).

1788067979921.png
I did the same thing for positions 3 to 7 since I think we all agree openers that have the same average as a middle order bat are worth a bit more and hence probably impact the metric, particularly given how bad the openers root have played with have been bar cook. Story is basically the same.
1788068322816.png
The table below isn't exactly the same (The ball by ball data I have doesn't capture Ponting or Lara completely, so used statsguru instead). These numbers are just Ponting and Lara overall vs the batting averages of No.1 to No.11 in each of there career's. The point i'm trying to make is that if Root plays another 40 games and Smith plays another 21 (2027 Ashes assumption), Smith will be ~61.5% better than the top 7 players in his games, Root will never get past 52.5% better unless he wakes up as Donald Bradman tommorow. Lara and Ponting are a decent comparison here insofar as Ponting made 2000 more runs than Lara and has a slightly lower average, but noone on the Forum as far as I know seriously considers those two to be comparable. My understanding is that the framing usually goes Bradman in tier 1, best since Bradman in tier 2 (Lara is usually here, along with Tendulkar, and Smith), and Ponting usually ends up in tier 3 with other guys from that Era (Sanga, Kallis, Dravid) purely as batsmen. I feel like it would take an extreme decline on Smith's side, and/or (probably and) a second, additional improvement from Root for this discussion to be any different for them by the end of there career's.


Relative Career Dominance (Player vs 1-11 Match Average)

PlayerPlayer AverageMatch Average (1-11)Relative Difference
Brian Lara52.8832.73+61.6%
Ricky Ponting51.8533.56+54.5%
 

CodeOfWisden

State Vice-Captain
He will never come close to Smith, his peak numbers and performances were ridiculous.

First of all Root needs to ensure his average doesn’t drop below 50, its quite close right now.
 

Darwin Award

State Vice-Captain
... Interesting the original poster asks what will it take to surpass Steve Smith'?

Does that mean he's already passed @Burgey's TOTAB some time back & left him in the dust & now Steve Smith is the next 'final boss'? lol
 

Slifer

International Captain
The only reason I rate Sachin Tendulkar over Lara is their respective away records and averages. Even allowing for the fact that Lara has very few not outs thus his average hasn't benefited from that, he is still behind Sachin even on actual rpi.

Smith averages 53 to Roots 47 away. Root is solid to great in every country but well below par in Ashes away tests. Doubt that'll change so I dont see him overtaking Smith. It'll be interesting to see how Smith does away to India and South Africa. If he passes both tests ie averages say 40+ vs both or either, I see no reason he can't leapfrog Sachin. I already have him ahead of Lara, Sobers, Hutton and Viv. Behind only Sachin, Hobbs and Mr Obvious.
 

govinda indian fan

International Captain
The only reason I rate Sachin Tendulkar over Lara is their respective away records and averages. Even allowing for the fact that Lara has very few not outs thus his average hasn't benefited from that, he is still behind Sachin even on actual rpi.

Smith averages 53 to Roots 47 away. Root is solid to great in every country but well below par in Ashes away tests. Doubt that'll change so I dont see him overtaking Smith. It'll be interesting to see how Smith does away to India and South Africa. If he passes both tests ie averages say 40+ vs both or either, I see no reason he can't leapfrog Sachin. I already have him ahead of Lara, Sobers, Hutton and Viv. Behind only Sachin, Hobbs and Mr Obvious.
I agree. Let see if smith still got it
 

Johan

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The only reason I rate Sachin Tendulkar over Lara is their respective away records and averages. Even allowing for the fact that Lara has very few not outs thus his average hasn't benefited from that, he is still behind Sachin even on actual rpi.

Smith averages 53 to Roots 47 away. Root is solid to great in every country but well below par in Ashes away tests. Doubt that'll change so I dont see him overtaking Smith. It'll be interesting to see how Smith does away to India and South Africa. If he passes both tests ie averages say 40+ vs both or either, I see no reason he can't leapfrog Sachin. I already have him ahead of Lara, Sobers, Hutton and Viv. Behind only Sachin, Hobbs and Mr Obvious.
Come back to the light.
 

DrWolverine

Cricketer Of The Year
2010s
Smith : 72 Tests. 7164 runs @ 63. 26 centuries
Root : 89 Tests. 7359 runs @ 48. 17 centuries

2020s
Root : 79 Tests. 6849 runs @ 52. 24 centuries.
Smith : 53 Tests. 3756 runs @ 46. 11 centuries
 

DrWolverine

Cricketer Of The Year
The only reason I rate Sachin Tendulkar over Lara is their respective away records and averages.
SRT > Lara, Viv, Smith because of his longevity/volume
100s vs more ATG bowlers than any other bat in history
1992-2011 : 172 Tests. 14622 runs @ 57.57. 50 tons.
 

Slifer

International Captain
SRT > Lara, Viv, Smith because of his longevity/volume
100s vs more ATG bowlers than any other bat in history
1992-2011 : 172 Tests. 14622 runs @ 57.57. 50 tons.
Longevity perhaps but what you do in that longevity matters as well. He averaged 57 in that time frame but unless he averaged that vs the Atg bowlers overall, then no he isnt inarguably above the rest. I know he averages well in attacks featuring Steyn, Murali and Walsh but he's brought back down to earth vs the Donalds, McGraths and Ws. Then there are the runs vs dire attacks from Ban, Zim and some of those NZ attacks. Smith for example, generally played vs very few weak attacks imo.

And I'll never subscribe to chucking up players careers. You can do that with almost any player to make them look better. And Sachin doesn't need that, he's already arguably the 2nd best bat of all time.
 

govinda indian fan

International Captain
Longevity perhaps but what you do in that longevity matters as well. He averaged 57 in that time frame but unless he averaged that vs the Atg bowlers overall, then no he isnt inarguably above the rest. I know he averages well in attacks featuring Steyn, Murali and Walsh but he's brought back down to earth vs the Donalds, McGraths and Ws. Then there are the runs vs dire attacks from Ban, Zim and some of those NZ attacks. Smith for example, generally played vs very few weak attacks imo.

And I'll never subscribe to chucking up players careers. You can do that with almost any player to make them look better. And Sachin doesn't need that, he's already arguably the 2nd best bat of all time.
Sachin played just 4 tests vs W's. we don't know how he would have done if he played more. His record vs Donald is head straching . He avg 40+ on difficult south African pitches but failed on easy home pitches just like Brian Lara's ' failures vs india. Smith too has similar numbers vs bumrah & rabada. Has decent numbers only vs styen among atg pacers he faced
 

OverratedSanity

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Longevity perhaps but what you do in that longevity matters as well. He averaged 57 in that time frame but unless he averaged that vs the Atg bowlers overall, then no he isnt inarguably above the rest. I know he averages well in attacks featuring Steyn, Murali and Walsh but he's brought back down to earth vs the Donalds, McGraths and Ws. Then there are the runs vs dire attacks from Ban, Zim and some of those NZ attacks. Smith for example, generally played vs very few weak attacks imo. And I'll never subscribe to chucking up players careers. You can do that with almost any player to make them look better.
Indeed . One of the easiest ways you can do that is by slicing players' careers into small chunks of matches vs specific bowlers.
 

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