The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Johan]

Ramprakash and Hick would have been considered batting legends if they were born 50 years before.

If they were born 50 years before, They wouldn't have achieved much in the county level at all.

 

[mr_mister]

Ramprakash and Hick would have been considered batting legends if they were born 50 years before.

Even if they still averaged 27 and 31 from 50+ tests each?

I get a Phil Mead situation where he had a limited test career but still performed decently in it. Ramps and Hicks had plenty of chances and still flopped.

 

[Johan]

Hendren played over a 50 Tests and averaged 47.6. Mead's case too, only 17 Tests but averaged nearly 50, played a lot on low scoring mattings too.

 

[DrWolverine]

Even if they still averaged 27 and 31 from 50+ tests each?

I am assuming they would have done much better with lesser competition back then.

 

[mr_mister]

Hendren played over a 50 Tests and averaged 47.6. Mead's case too, only 17 Tests but averaged nearly 50, played a lot on low scoring mattings too.

Edited my post after googling how many he played(thought it was like 30) but you beat me to it

 

[Johan]

I am assuming they would have done much better with lesser competition back then.

Baseless assumption and makes the hypothetical meaningless, it's like saying Venkatesh Prasad would be remembered as an ATG if he debuted 30 years later because I assumed he would do much better than he actually did.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Hendren played over a 50 Tests and averaged 47.6. Mead's case too, only 17 Tests but averaged nearly 50, played a lot on low scoring mattings too.

Hendren was a damn fine player. With the bums England fielded since Hutton, he would probably be considered legend in Modern Era England.

 

[peterhrt]

When the leading English all-rounders in the County Championship were discussed, it usually centred around the Big Four of Grace, Hirst, Rhodes and Woolley. The nearest to them in terms of achievement was JW "Young Jack" Hearne.

Batting Averages
Hearne 41, Woolley 41, Grace 40, Hirst 35, Rhodes 30

Woolley's run aggregate of 43,703 is second to Phil Mead. He is one of six men with a hundred centuries in the championship, the others being Mead, Hobbs, Hendren, Hammond and Ramprakash.

Bowling Averages and Wickets per Match (WpM in brackets)
Rhodes 15 (4.1), Grace 18 (3.7), Hirst 18 (3.5), Woolley 18 (2.2), Hearne 22 (3.1)

Rhodes is the second highest wicket-taker in the competition after Tich Freeman.

Catches
Woolley 712, Rhodes 521, Hirst 437, Grace 349, Hearne 213

Woolley and Grace had catches per match ratios exceeding 1.0. Woolley held most outfield catches in the history of the championship.

Captaincy
Grace led Gloucestershire to four county titles in 1873 (joint winners), 1874, 1876 and 1877.

 

[mr_mister]

Was Grace's bowling that good? I feel like he bowled in an era where everyone had a bowl every game(and most probably averaged under 20). And wasn't underarm bowling still in fashion when he debuted?

 

[Johan]

Hendren was a damn fine player. With the bums England fielded since Hutton, he would probably be considered legend in Modern Era England.

would be of great use in the years between the 1989 Ashes and before Nasser started building up the team again, either the best batsman in the country or tied with Thorpe.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Was Grace's bowling that good? I feel like he bowled in an era where everyone had a bowl every game(and most probably averaged under 20). And wasn't underarm bowling still in fashion when he debuted?

Grace's bowling was hardly talked about much. And yeah, almost every decent bowler back then averaged sub 20, most 18. But what can't be argued is that, he bowled tons. Like even by bowler standards, his WPM stands scrutiny, even before accounting for the fact that he bowled significantly less in the later years of his 4 decades long career. 10th most FC wickets, and the 3rd most on including Grade cricket!!!! (The first two are Charles Absolom and his brother, Fred Grace).

 

[peterhrt]

Was Grace's bowling that good? I feel like he bowled in an era where everyone had a bowl every game(and most probably averaged under 20). And wasn't underarm bowling still in fashion when he debuted?

Considering how many wickets he took, reports of the time rarely afford Grace's bowling much praise. But he knew what he was doing. Like Rhodes later, he was a shrewd reader of batsmen and adjusted his bowling accordingly.

Some historians talk about him delivering medium-pace roundarm in his younger days before turning to slow stuff when he put on weight. It is an over-simplification. As early as 1871, age 23, there are reports of a "head ball", a slow delivery from a high arm that dropped suddenly on the batsman causing him to give a return catch. Grace recorded 222 caught and bowled dismissals, more than anyone in first-class history. He bowled from round the wicket then stood directly in front of the stumps to form a substantial barrier, moving quickly to the side as necessary to field the ball. How umpires gave decisions is not clear.

There were still a few lob (underarm) bowlers around, who could cause problems for inexperienced batsmen or those reluctant to leave their crease. They usually jerked the ball out from under the armpit with the back of the hand facing the batsman, imparting a lot of spin and swerve while maintaining accuracy. Periodicals at the time urged schoolmasters not to neglect this form of bowling when instructing their pupils. As late as 1910 George Simpson-Hayward took 23 wickets in a Test series on South African matting with this kind of bowling.

 

[DrWolverine]

 

[ataraxia]

View attachment 53245

Not some unbelievable feat, given fathers and sons have played in the same FC match as recently as 2017.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not some unbelievable feat, given fathers and sons have played in the same FC match as recently as 2017.

If only Jimmy got Denis once too, like he did Nick.

 

[Coronis]

If only Jimmy got Denis once too, like he did Nick.

Hmmm I’m trying to think if this ever happened for an FC cricketer. Most obvious candidates would be guys like Grace, Hirst, Rhodes.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Was Grace's bowling that good? I feel like he bowled in an era where everyone had a bowl every game(and most probably averaged under 20). And wasn't underarm bowling still in fashion when he debuted?

Watch from 3:20

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

As a batsman, Supreme. As a bowler, Great.

Redirect Notice

 

[Coronis]

ATG XIs by era - must have played the majority of their tests in selected era,

Pre WWI (1877-1914)

Rhodes
Grace*
Hill
Ranji
Shrewsbury
Trumper
Faulkner
Blackham+
Lohmann
Barnes
Spofforth

More than a few guys unlucky here. The team I’m least sure of.

Between the Wars (1920-1939)

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Hammond
Headley
McCabe
Tate
Oldfield+
Larwood
Grimmett
O’Reilly

Spent a bit of time choosing between Gregory and McCabe for the final spot. Verity could also sub in for Grimmett but Tiger loved Grum so much that I’m hesitant to break them up.

Post WWII (1946-1970)

Hutton*
Simpson
Barrington
Pollock
Walcott+
Sobers
Miller
Lindwall
Davison
Laker
Trueman

Odd layout but I wanted Miller. Rip Waite and Weekes.

ODI (1971-2005)

Gavaskar
Boycott
Lara
Tendulkar
Chappell*
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

Very tight between Chappell and Richards. Ponting also worth a mention due to the time period.

T20 (2005-2026)

Smith*
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Smith
Root
Younis
Watling+
Ashwin
Cummins
Steyn
Bumrah

Could be Ashwin or Lyon.

 

[DrWolverine]

ATG XIs by era - must have played the majority of their tests in selected era,

Pre WWI (1877-1914)

Rhodes
Grace*
Hill
Ranji
Shrewsbury
Trumper
Faulkner
Blackham+
Lohmann
Barnes
Spofforth

More than a few guys unlucky here. The team I’m least sure of.

Between the Wars (1920-1939)

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Hammond
Headley
McCabe
Tate
Oldfield+
Larwood
Grimmett
O’Reilly

Spent a bit of time choosing between Gregory and McCabe for the final spot. Verity could also sub in for Grimmett but Tiger loved Grum so much that I’m hesitant to break them up.

Post WWII (1946-1970)

Hutton*
Simpson
Barrington
Pollock
Walcott+
Sobers
Miller
Lindwall
Davison
Laker
Trueman

Odd layout but I wanted Miller. Rip Waite and Weekes.

ODI (1971-2005)

Gavaskar
Boycott
Lara
Tendulkar
Chappell*
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

Very tight between Chappell and Richards. Ponting also worth a mention due to the time period.

T20 (2005-2026)

Smith*
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Smith
Root
Younis
Watling+
Ashwin
Cummins
Steyn
Bumrah

Could be Ashwin or Lyon.

Rank the 5 teams.