The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[peterhrt]

Judged solely on career performance in The County Championship

This is hardly ever done. There is sometimes confusion with overall county figures, or those for all first-class cricket. Below are some numbers for County Championship matches only. Goes back to the first championship of 1827.

Ten batsmen average fifty, having scored at least 20,000 runs
Boycott 58.27, Ramprakash 58.18, Fry 56.77, Hammond 56.67, Hick 54.19, Gatting 51.46, Glenn Turner 51.20, Gooch 51.15, Sutcliffe 50.71, Hendren 50.49

Ten bowlers average under 20, having taken at least 2,000 wickets
Rhodes 15.71, Blythe 16.33, Freeman 17.30, Tate 17.55, Jack White 17.86, Hirst 18.09, Shackleton 18.12, JT Hearne 18.20, Parker 19.30, Goddard 19.46

Nine all-rounders have scored 20,000 runs and taken 1,000 wickets
Grace, Hirst, Rhodes, Woolley, JW Hearne, JH King, John Gunn, Vallance Jupp, James Langridge

Six wicket-keepers have completed 1,100 dismissals
Bob Taylor 1220, Strudwick 1131, Huish 1128, Brian Taylor 1127, Harry Elliott 1124, John Murray 1123

Six fielders have held 600 catches
Woolley 712, John Langridge 707, Arthur Milton 642, Brian Close 625, Peter Walker 609, Phil Mead 603

 

[kyear2]

Damn good XI imo.


Kind of agree on Sobers, but tbf, he was arguably a better player in county. (presumably some of these Nottinghamshire matches weren’t county championship specifically but I’m gonna include them anyway)

107 matches
7041 @ 48.89 18 tons 39 50’s
281 @ 25.62 9 5’fers 1 10’fer
108 catches

You’d might be better off going with a different player but then you’d have to rework the team a bit potentially since it would be another international.

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

 

[Coronis]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

Well I did say arguably. But I feel the the 8.41 bowling average decrease is more significant than the 8.89 batting average decrease, no?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

It'd be very close. The only think that may hold me back from saying this hypothetical version is significantly better is the low wpm and 5fers. If it was the same bowling average but he took close to 370-380 wickets in the same number of games it'd be an absolute no brainer for me.

 

[Bolo.]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

I had the same thought looking at the post before seeing yours. I reckon he would be a better player, but likely end up rated lower.

It'd be very close. The only think that may hold me back from saying this hypothetical version is significantly better is the low wpm and 5fers. If it was the same bowling average but he took close to 370-380 wickets in the same number of games it'd be an absolute no brainer for me.

3 day games. WPM is solid. Hadlee and Marshall were FC bowling gods, and end up on each side of 4WPM.

 

[Johan]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

what WPM? if he's taking 3+ WPM in this scenario, then yeah I'd rate him higher.

 

[kyear2]

This version would be the better all rounder, not quite so sure if the better cricketer.

But that's just my take

 

[capt_Luffy]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

Hmmm...... It's actually very close. Maybe about equal.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It'd be very close. The only think that may hold me back from saying this hypothetical version is significantly better is the low wpm and 5fers. If it was the same bowling average but he took close to 370-380 wickets in the same number of games it'd be an absolute no brainer for me.

These are 3 day games though, so they likely translate to 370-380 Test wickets if not more.

 

[OverratedSanity]

These are 3 day games though, so they likely translate to 370-380 Test wickets if not more.

He said if those were his test numbers

 

[capt_Luffy]

He said if those were his test numbers

I mean, I took that as if he performed like that in Tests, not a 1-0-1 from 3 to 5 days. But fair.

 

[kyear2]

I mean, I took that as if he performed like that in Tests, not a 1-0-1 from 3 to 5 days. But fair.

Basically

 

[ataraxia]

County averages in Sobers's day were significantly lower than test averages. Let's not take them at face value.

 

[mr_mister]

Serious question to any who's interested.

If those were his test numbers, would be higher more highly or lower rated as a cricketer than he is now?

I'd say even higher.

There's basically nobody with an impressive, ATVG bowling average, averaging above 40 with the bat. Aubrey Faulkner just scrapes it, but his bowling average of 26 for that era isn't really that amazing.

25 w/ball and 48 with bat is incredibly unique. Probably something Miller could have achieved but didn't.

Not to discount Sobers already pretty rare set of test averages, but Kallis does compare. And Hammond isn't that far off either

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'd say even higher.

There's basically nobody with an impressive, ATVG bowling average, averaging above 40 with the bat. Aubrey Faulkner just scrapes it, but his bowling average of 26 for that era isn't really that amazing.

25 w/ball and 48 with bat is incredibly unique. Probably something Miller could have achieved but didn't.

Not to discount Sobers already pretty rare set of test averages, but Kallis does compare. And Hammond isn't that far off either

Re Faulkner, re is also someone who's FC stats being his tests would severely boost him. Ofc his batting takes a light beating of 3 runs, but his bowling average improves by a whole 9 runs.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah, that would bring Faulkner closer to Imran, ATG bowler and test standard top 6/7 bat.

I guess the special thing about this hypothetical Sobers 25/48 split is there are ATG bowlers with that first average (Warne) and borderline ATG batsmen (Harvey) with the second one.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah, that would bring Faulkner closer to Imran, ATG bowler and test standard top 6/7 bat.

I guess the special thing about this hypothetical Sobers 25/48 split is there are ATG bowlers with that first average (Warne) and borderline ATG batsmen (Harvey) with the second one.

I mean, I agree there are no ATG batsmen averaging 37, but Trumper and Hill, two ATG batsmen and the two best of his era comfortably, both averaged 39. Now add a 17 bowling average to that, and I think he can be argued to be as good if not better than this Sobers.

 

[peterhrt]

Some figures below relating to overseas players in the County Championship. The numbers quoted by Coronis for Sobers a little earlier represent his exact CC record. Sobers does not feature in any of the records below, lending some weight to the argument of Jane Austen that he has been overrated as a county cricketer. Neither Imran nor Rice feature either.

Top ten averages of overseas batsmen who scored 10,000 runs
Stuart Law 56.52, Chris Rogers 53.32, Glenn Turner 51.20, Kanhai 50.84, Di Venuto 49.59, Viv Richards 49.43, Zaheer Abbas, 48.89, Barry Richards 48.31, Murray Goodwin 48.14, Ed Joyce 47.38

Top ten averages of bowlers with 500 wickets
Hadlee 14.50, Tarrant 17.44, Dooland 18.42, Marshall 18.55, Sylvester Clarke 19.06, Procter 19.58, Courtney Walsh 19.96, Tribe 20.16, Donald 20.42,
Ted McDonald 20.53

Seven all-rounders scored 10,000 runs took 500 wickets
Procter, Mushtaq Mohammad, Tarrant, Sammy Woods, Bill Alley, Vic Jackson, John Shepherd

Three wicket-keepers completed 200 dismissals
Engineer 437, Deryck Murray 277, Ken James 200

Three fielders held 300 catches
Ken Grieves 492, Gordon Greenidge 304, Ron Headley 302

 

[peterhrt]

Returning to the discussion about Sobers in the County Championship, it may be worth comparing his numbers with those of other all-rounders. A dozen overseas all-rounders are covered here, all averaging over thirty with the bat. Kapil Dev and Kallis only played 40 and 22 CC matches respectively, but are included given their high profile on the forum.

Batting Averages
Sobers 48, Kallis 45, Rice 44, Kapil Dev 42, Mushtaq Mohammad 39, Hadlee 39, Tarrant 38, Imran 38, Cairns 37, Procter 36, SG Smith 32, Bill Alley 30

Sobers' average is the same as contemporary batsmen Barry Richards and Zaheer.

Bowling Averages and Wickets per Match (WpM in brackets)
Hadlee 14 (4.2), Tarrant 17 (4.9), SG Smith 17 (4.1), Procter 19 (3.3), Imran 20 (3.1), Alley 21 (2.2), Mushtaq 23 (2.1), Kallis 23 (1.9), Rice 24 (1.7),
Sobers 25 (2.6), Kapil Dev 26 (2.6), Cairns 30 (2.6)

Sobers had a heavier bowling load than the other batting all-rounders and an inferior average.

Catches
Rice 258, Alley 256, Procter 196, Tarrant 188, Mushtaq 166, Sobers 108, Hadlee 103, SG Smith 81, Imran 47, Kapil Dev 40, Cairns 38, Kallis 18

Only Sobers has a catches per match ratio above 1.0. Kapil's is exactly 1.0.

Captaincy
Rice led his county to two championship titles.

Was Sobers the greatest overseas all-rounder in the County Championship? He was one of the best batsmen certainly. But for overall impact, Hadlee and Tarrant would appear to be ahead of him. Perhaps also Procter and Rice. Fellow West Indian Sydney Smith was notable for helping to carry a weak side.

 

[DrWolverine]

Ramprakash and Hick would have been considered batting legends if they were born 50 years before.