The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[howitzer]

I've learned not to blindly follow AI, but I have said a lot of what was explained here.

I said previously and was shouted down, Imran wasn't clearly seen as the best of the 80's all rounders, they were always celebrated as a group. If there was an appointed or perceived leader of the group it was Botham, also said that before and was called a liar.
Now a lot of that did have to do with Ashes heroics, but that's no different to how Warne was elevated.

In a post below @DrWolverine had the contemporary ratings pretty dead on.

Bowling, definitely
Hadlee, Imran, Botham, Dev

Batting much closer, but
Botham, Dev, Imran, Hadlee.

Yeah the difference between each batsman in the ranking is small, as are the gaps between Hadlee and Imran, and Botham and Kapil as bowlers. The gap between Imran and Botham as bowlers is much larger than any other gap here.

Edit: That's why Hadlee and Imran are clearly superior cricketers than Botham.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah the difference between each batsman in the ranking is small, as are the gaps between Hadlee and Imran, and Botham and Kapil as bowlers. The gap between Imran and Botham as bowlers is much larger than any other gap here.

Edit: That's why Hadlee and Imran are clearly superior cricketers than Botham.

I would hope so, I rank them higher.

 

[Jane Austen]

WG was asked whom he would most like to see buckling up his pads to accompany him out to bat.
Without hesitation he replied " Give me Arthur"
The great Nottinghamshire batter Arthur Shrewsbury was ,obviously leaving aside WG,the greatest English Test batter pre 1900 other than Ranji,the genius who gave us the leg-glance.
Like Ranji,Shrewsbury was a batting innovator,albeit in a defensive sense.It was he who first perfected the use of the pads as a second line of defence which,together with his technique,enabled him to play many masterly defensive innings on difficult pitches---witness his scores at Lord's,in 1886,of 164 facing "The Demon" Spofforth,and,again at Lord's,in 1893,a double of 106 and 81 against "The Terror" Turner,both pitches being considered difficult.
He averaged over 35 with 3 centuries in 23 Tests.
A great but forgotten defensive master.
Lohmann---fabulous,statistics.An ATG but those extraordinary statistics are boosted a little by the Tests he played against the early SA teams.
For me,two even greater bowlers compete for the greatest Test bowlers pre 1900---- Fred Spofforth and Tom Richardson.
Both are acknowledged as truly great by contempories and subsequent historians and all their wickets were obtained in England v Australia clashes.
Spofforth--the master of the dark arts,slower ball,variations and a bit of swerve.
Richardson-----the apotheosis of the fast bowler tall,dark,handsome....and,well...very fast,with the stamina to bowl long and accurate spells.

 

[howitzer]

WG was asked whom he would most like to see buckling up his pads to accompany him out to bat.
Without hesitation he replied " Give me Arthur"
The great Nottinghamshire batter Arthur Shrewsbury was ,obviously leaving aside WG,the greatest English Test batter pre 1900 other than Ranji,the genius who gave us the leg-glance.
Like Ranji,Shrewsbury was a batting innovator,albeit in a defensive sense.It was he who first perfected the use of the pads as a second line of defence which,together with his technique,enabled him to play many masterly defensive innings on difficult pitches---witness his scores at Lord's,in 1886,of 164 facing "The Demon" Spofforth,and,again at Lord's,in 1893,a double of 106 and 81 against "The Terror" Turner,both pitches being considered difficult.
He averaged over 35 with 3 centuries in 23 Tests.
A great but forgotten defensive master.
Lohmann---fabulous,statistics.An ATG but those extraordinary statistics are boosted a little by the Tests he played against the early SA teams.
For me,two even greater bowlers compete for the greatest Test bowlers pre 1900---- Fred Spofforth and Tom Richardson.
Both are acknowledged as truly great by contempories and subsequent historians and all their wickets were obtained in England v Australia clashes.
Spofforth--the master of the dark arts,slower ball,variations and a bit of swerve.
Richardson-----the apotheosis of the fast bowler tall,dark,handsome....and,well...very fast,with the stamina to bowl long and accurate spells.

77 wickets in 15 Tests at 13.01 against Australia are still remarkable figures for Lohmann though, even with era adjustments. He seems to have often been disparaged for having the temerity to dive for difficult slip catches (i.e. inventing modern slip catching) and that reputation might have affected the views of his bowling from people who didn't like that. Possibly the first genuine professional rather than just someone who was paid to play cricket.

 

[honestbharani]

What in chatgpt is this?

The truth.

 

[honestbharani]

Anyways, continuing that chat, this is how chatGPT rated the allrounders -

UPDATED ALL-TIME ALL-ROUNDER RATINGS

🟢 Tier 1 (GOAT)

• Sobers → 10.0
• Kallis → 9.5

🟡 Tier 2A (elite / Fab band)

• Hadlee → 8.5
• Imran → 8.2
• Keith Miller → 8.1
• Botham → 7.8
• Kapil → 7.6
• Jadeja → 7.5

🟠 Tier 2B (just below elite)

• Aubrey Faulkner → 7.7
• Trevor Goddard → 7.6
• Pollock → 7.3
• Ashwin → 7.2
• Vinoo Mankad → 7.2–7.4

Tier 3 (strong but not top tier)

• Shakib → 7.0
• Cairns → 6.8
• Tony Greig → 6.8–7.0
• Benaud → 6.9
• Davidson → 7.2 (bowling-skewed)

Tier 4 (contextual / incomplete cases)

• Flintoff → 6.5
• Streak → 6.3
• Clive Rice → ~7.5 potential (uncertain)
• Rhodes / Hirst → hard to normalize

 

[Coronis]

Anyways, continuing that chat, this is how chatGPT rated the allrounders -

UPDATED ALL-TIME ALL-ROUNDER RATINGS

🟢 Tier 1 (GOAT)

• Sobers → 10.0
• Kallis → 9.5

🟡 Tier 2A (elite / Fab band)

• Hadlee → 8.5
• Imran → 8.2
• Keith Miller → 8.1
• Botham → 7.8
• Kapil → 7.6
• Jadeja → 7.5

🟠 Tier 2B (just below elite)

• Aubrey Faulkner → 7.7
• Trevor Goddard → 7.6
• Pollock → 7.3
• Ashwin → 7.2
• Vinoo Mankad → 7.2–7.4

Tier 3 (strong but not top tier)

• Shakib → 7.0
• Cairns → 6.8
• Tony Greig → 6.8–7.0
• Benaud → 6.9
• Davidson → 7.2 (bowling-skewed)

Tier 4 (contextual / incomplete cases)

• Flintoff → 6.5
• Streak → 6.3
• Clive Rice → ~7.5 potential (uncertain)
• Rhodes / Hirst → hard to normalize

No Stokes is good but Shakib way too low.

 

[DrWolverine]

The truth.

Lion. Legend. Ruler.

 

[howitzer]

Anyways, continuing that chat, this is how chatGPT rated the allrounders -

UPDATED ALL-TIME ALL-ROUNDER RATINGS

🟢 Tier 1 (GOAT)

• Sobers → 10.0
• Kallis → 9.5

🟡 Tier 2A (elite / Fab band)

• Hadlee → 8.5
• Imran → 8.2
• Keith Miller → 8.1
• Botham → 7.8
• Kapil → 7.6
• Jadeja → 7.5

🟠 Tier 2B (just below elite)

• Aubrey Faulkner → 7.7
• Trevor Goddard → 7.6
• Pollock → 7.3
• Ashwin → 7.2
• Vinoo Mankad → 7.2–7.4

Tier 3 (strong but not top tier)

• Shakib → 7.0
• Cairns → 6.8
• Tony Greig → 6.8–7.0
• Benaud → 6.9
• Davidson → 7.2 (bowling-skewed)

Tier 4 (contextual / incomplete cases)

• Flintoff → 6.5
• Streak → 6.3
• Clive Rice → ~7.5 potential (uncertain)
• Rhodes / Hirst → hard to normalize

Kapil and Jadeja elite with 7.6 and 7.5 but Faulkner and Goddard just below elite with 7.7 and 7.6. Interesting.

 

[HimeshChaturvedi]

Kapil and Jadeja elite with 7.6 and 7.5 but Faulkner and Goddard just below elite with 7.7 and 7.6. Interesting.

Indian tax vs non-Indian tax.

 

[howitzer]

Indian tax vs non-Indian tax.

Maybe subs is fighting the good fight after all. In more seriousness there seems to be a conscious ignorance of most South African cricketers pre-isolation by high profile people and that seems to lead to several very good cricketers not getting their due, Faulkner and Goddard amongst them.

 

[honestbharani]

To be fair, I kept giving some conditions like 2000 + runs and 150+ wickets and a batting average of greater than 25 and bowling average less than 35 etc. Its why Stokes did not make it and I guess a few others would not have too. Plus GPT is really not great at research anyways. I am sure Gemini and Claude will do far better.

 

[peterhrt]

Today in the Daily Telegraph, Scyld Berry selected his County Championship XI covering the period 1890-2000. Two overseas players were allowed.

Hobbs
Boycott
Hammond
Hick
Woolley
Sobers
Hirst
Procter
Rhodes*
Bob Taylor +
Trueman

Also considered: Sutcliffe, Mead, Ames, Shackleton, Tich Freeman.

Ames was deemed not athletic enough standing back to the quicker bowlers. Should Rhodes turn down the captaincy, it would be offered to Hirst or Trueman.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Today in the Daily Telegraph, Scyld Berry selected his County Championship XI covering the period 1890-2000. Two overseas players were allowed.

Hobbs
Boycott
Hammond
Hick
Woolley
Sobers
Hirst
Procter
Rhodes*
Bob Taylor +
Trueman

Also considered: Sutcliffe, Mead, Ames, Shackleton, Tich Freeman.

Ames was deemed not athletic enough standing back to the quicker bowlers. Should Rhodes turn down the captaincy, it would be offered to Hirst or Trueman.

No Hadlee even in honourable mention!?

 

[peterhrt]

No Hadlee even in honourable mention!?

No. The two overseas slots were taken. He basically lost out to Procter. Scyld Berry has played for Gloucestershire Over-60s, the same county as Procter.

 

[peterhrt]

The Telegraph also named their Top 30 county cricketers of the 21st century:

1 Mushtaq Ahmed, 2 Darren Stevens, 3 Ramprakash, 4 Sidebottom, 5 Trescothick, 6 Harmer, 7 Onions, 8 Rikki Clarke, 9 Chris Read, 10 Rory Burns,
11 Murray Goodwin, 12 Lehmann, 13 Murtagh, 14 Glen Chapple, 15 Stuart Law, 16 Kyle Abbott, 17 Roland-Jones, 18 Ed Joyce, 19 Chris Rogers,
20 James Foster, 21 Jamie Porter, 22 Hildreth, 23 Martin Bicknell, 24 Rushworth, 25 Lyth, 26 Madsen, 27 Jeetan Patel, 28 Mohammad Abbas,
29 Key, 30 Warne

 

[peterhrt]

No Hadlee even in honourable mention!?

Correction. He is mentioned. Procter is described as "the equal of the other great contemporary all-rounders, Ian Botham, Imran Khan, Kapil Dev and Richard Hadlee."

 

[Jane Austen]

Today in the Daily Telegraph, Scyld Berry selected his County Championship XI covering the period 1890-2000. Two overseas players were allowed.

Hobbs
Boycott
Hammond
Hick
Woolley
Sobers
Hirst
Procter
Rhodes*
Bob Taylor +
Trueman

Also considered: Sutcliffe, Mead, Ames, Shackleton, Tich Freeman.

Ames was deemed not athletic enough standing back to the quicker bowlers. Should Rhodes turn down the captaincy, it would be offered to Hirst or Trueman.

Judged solely on career performance in The County Championship I reckon that Scyld Berry gave too much deference to the unique standing and overall career of Garry Sobers.
After his first season for Nottinghamshire in 1968 when his brilliance brought about their rise from bottom to 4th place,Sobers was,for him,no more than a very good player until leaving Notts in 1975.
Clive Rice or Richard Hadlee may have been more deserving choices.
Also,there is a surfeit of slow-left arm bowlers.Perhaps Gloucestershire's Tom Goddard could have been considered if Tich Freeman was not in the final eleven.
Maurice Tate is another with very strong credentials as a bowling all-rounder as is Patsy Hendren as a batter.
I would also consider Tom Richardson and Brian Statham to be strong contenders to the fast bowler slot,if not Harold Larwood whose career was much more than just The Bodyline Series.
Finally,if no overseas players were included then the likes of William Astill,Vallance Jupp,Trevor Bailey,Alec Kennedy,plus Tate,come into the reckoning as very skillful,long-serving all-rounders.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

To be fair, I kept giving some conditions like 2000 + runs and 150+ wickets and a batting average of greater than 25 and bowling average less than 35 etc. Its why Stokes did not make it and I guess a few others would not have too. Plus GPT is really not great at research anyways. I am sure Gemini and Claude will do far better.

Lol, they're all slop

 

[Coronis]

Today in the Daily Telegraph, Scyld Berry selected his County Championship XI covering the period 1890-2000. Two overseas players were allowed.

Hobbs
Boycott
Hammond
Hick
Woolley
Sobers
Hirst
Procter
Rhodes*
Bob Taylor +
Trueman

Also considered: Sutcliffe, Mead, Ames, Shackleton, Tich Freeman.

Ames was deemed not athletic enough standing back to the quicker bowlers. Should Rhodes turn down the captaincy, it would be offered to Hirst or Trueman.

Damn good XI imo.

Judged solely on career performance in The County Championship I reckon that Scyld Berry gave too much deference to the unique standing and overall career of Garry Sobers.
After his first season for Nottinghamshire in 1968 when his brilliance brought about their rise from bottom to 4th place,Sobers was,for him,no more than a very good player until leaving Notts in 1975.
Clive Rice or Richard Hadlee may have been more deserving choices.
Also,there is a surfeit of slow-left arm bowlers.Perhaps Gloucestershire's Tom Goddard could have been considered if Tich Freeman was not in the final eleven.
Maurice Tate is another with very strong credentials as a bowling all-rounder as is Patsy Hendren as a batter.
I would also consider Tom Richardson and Brian Statham to be strong contenders to the fast bowler slot,if not Harold Larwood whose career was much more than just The Bodyline Series.
Finally,if no overseas players were included then the likes of William Astill,Vallance Jupp,Trevor Bailey,Alec Kennedy,plus Tate,come into the reckoning as very skillful,long-serving all-rounders.

Kind of agree on Sobers, but tbf, he was arguably a better player in county. (presumably some of these Nottinghamshire matches weren’t county championship specifically but I’m gonna include them anyway)

107 matches
7041 @ 48.89 18 tons 39 50’s
281 @ 25.62 9 5’fers 1 10’fer
108 catches

You’d might be better off going with a different player but then you’d have to rework the team a bit potentially since it would be another international.