Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

[Johan]

That requires the leap that soneone belived he was one run better with the ball.

Do you?

Maybe 2. And that's me being super generous. They're about as far from each other as Sachin and Lara.

 

[ataraxia]

Maybe 2. And that's me being super generous. They're about as far from each other as Sachin and Lara.

I do think 2 is crazy tbh. How far away is your worst fast bowling ATG from Marshall?

 

[kyear2]

I'm not saying Benaud is a racist but just because you are not racist to one race doesn't mean you are not racist to another race.

Anyway Kyear2 is just dumb.

And you're ignorant when you're commenting on something that you know absolutely nothing about.

Listen to how he spoke about west Indian crowds in England, how he spoke about the WI bowlers compared to how he spoke about Lillee, compared to how he spoke about Hadlee.

 

[Johan]

I do think 2 is crazy tbh. How far away is your worst fast bowling ATG from Marshall?

Shaun Pollock over like 11 years, and he averages 23. Yeah 2 is probably being a bit exaggerative tbh.

 

[Randomfan]

That requires the leap that soneone belived he was one run better with the ball.

Do you?

IK 76-89 ( In 1989 he bowled the 4th most overs in his entire career so its just does not make sense to remove that from his bowling career). Marshall and Hadlee were in different class. Holding is averaging 22.5 in that period.





Now we don't these adjustments for for most players otherwise Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee can get to 18-19 for their best away 35-40 tests in one stretch.

IK's entire away career Marshall and Hadlee were in different class. Holding was 3 runs better here.



I will leave the discussion for home here.

 

[Randomfan]

Total 7 bowlers with sub 20 away avg with 25 tests with best stretch excluding minnows in their career.

1. Malcom Marshall ( 8 Dec 1980 and 21 Jul 1988 ) : 28 tests - 151 wickets - Avg 17.84 - SR 41
2. Jasprit Bumrah ( 18 Aug 2018 - 15 Jan 2025 ) : 29 tests - 144 wickets - Avg 18.91 - SR 42
3. Glen McGrath ( 5 Mar 1999 - 21 Jul 2005 ) : 31 tests - 153 wickets - Avg 18.95 - SR 47
4. Curtly Ambrose (21 Jul 1988 - 6 Jul 1995) : 25 tests - 129 wickets - Avg 19.06 - SR 49
5. Alan Davidson (11 Jun 1953 - 6 Jul 1961) : 25 tests - 93 wickets - Avg 19.15 - SR 65
6. Richard Hadlee ( 27 Jul 1978 - 2 Dec 1988 ) : 26 tests - 156 wickets - Avg 19.21 - SR 47
7. Joel Garner ( 18 Feb 1977 - 12 Mar 1987 ) : 29 tests - 136 wickets - Avg 19.74 - SR 50

Marshall has avg of 17.8
Hadlee has avg of 19.2

Both of them have far bigger number of away tests in one stretch with sub 20 avg. This was just focusing on their beest stretch. Other era comaprison becomes hard, but it's easy to see in the same era. Marshall was just stand out. Hadlee following behind. Then others.

 

[subshakerz]

And he was the weak link in it. Hayden was considerably better. He wasn't horrible, definitely better than decent, but he wasn't the best behind there.

If Warne was good enough for ATG Aus, he is good enough for me. You keep using that team as the standard.

 

[subshakerz]

Does Kallis bat below 6?

Yes he bats at 4 in his career.

 

[subshakerz]

First off half the lists were garbage and it's alarming, pathetic and hilarious the depths you're willing to descend to prove such a stupid point.

I want to really take my time with this one.

1. It bears repeating that the lists were mostly absolute ****. Lets at least be honest with that one.

2. In almost all of those lists Imran is behind Viv and or Sachin. Are you now endorsing that specialists are better than all rounders?

3. Just to further highlight your desperation, youre highlighting lists that has Imran 16th and 18th, I suppose by brandishing these as evidence you belive that's a fair representation of his ranking? You belive that there's a possibility that Marshall is either the 68th or 75th best cricketer in history? One of them also has Kallis ahead of him. I suppose you're endorsing that as well? Kallis 4 places above Immi?

4. If one genuinely believes that a player is significantly and clearly better than another one who is competing for the same allocated slot, that person will selct the player who they believe to be better in said slot. This is so fundamentally straight forward it doesn’t bear debate. What's the point of being better if you can't make the field. This is why in every sport, , , , even has a team of the year and not a top 10. This is your argument, everyone thinks Imran is better but they don't want to put him on their team, they want to give someone else a chance, you're laughable dude. Youu belive Imran to be better and you include him, you don't afford that level of reason or intelligence to anyone else?

5. If it's not important why raise two of the very few he appears in? I assume that CMJ, Gower, Kimber, Eager, Crowe, Cricinfo, Wisden, Swanton, Boycott all though he was a top 3 player, but thought he couldn't fit into the team? Is it that you think they're stupid or don't understand the game? Which is it? The cope is unreal. CMJ and Gower also does rate Maco higher, but guess that doesn't count either?

6. But this is the most important part, and the one once strongly advocated by @Coronis of all people. It's impossible to compare batsmen to bowlers, far less to then try to incorporate all rounders. It's next to impossible to qualify and objectively list. That's why most people don't list and create teams. That's how brilliance and exceptionalism is displayed and acknowledged. Marshall is widely accepted as the greatest bowler to have played the game, but yeah 65th correlations pretty well to that. Idiocy

Quality of lists doesn’t matter, some are credible some are more adhoc, only need to demonstrate consensus of Imran over Marshall, not every selection.

The point is YOU use pundit consensus to make your arguments. Except it’s clear consensus is Marshall is inferior to Imran.

Imran and Marshall Dont even have the same slot in an ATG XI. Imrans competition is Wasim.

The point is not all ATG XI have Marshall. Plenty dont. I don’t care though.

Imran and Marshall are pretty straightforward comparison. Imran is comparable as a bowler but has batting and captaincy over Marshall, hence is better.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't pretend that he's widely rated as 3rd.

I'm saying that as the best bowler ever, I dont see an argument below 5. Hobbs, Sachin only two with a viable argument.

I've sent you lists where Marshall are ahead and considerably more credible ones.

There's no consensus for your lord and savior and certainly none where he's above Sachin, Viv, Warne etc.

I personally don't see how a bowler that most rate at the bottom of the top 10, consensus around here of 8th or 9th depending on if Barnes is included and and will soon slip below Bumrah probaly bringing him to 10th? Even his fans here have him there. You can check everyone loves to post lists.

How can the 10th best bowler (i know you have him 5th, but of course you do) be the 3rd best cricketer ever because he scored 10 runs a match higher than the best? Really?

The reason there's more consensus in AT teams than lists is because lists dont make sense, not between disciplines. It's too damn subjective and everyone's expectations are different.

Anyways, not responding to anymore Imran posts, not the thread for that.

You use consensus when it suits you. I don’t.

You are literally using consensus in this post to call Imran the 10th best bowler.

Anyways, majority see Imran and Marshall close as bowler, but Imran has much more to offer. Simple.

The ESPN list is more credible than any list you can bring, and it’s clear Marshall was well behind Imran.

 

[subshakerz]

No, I call him racist due to a long hypocritical list of comments made over a decade about a strategy that we simply adapted from Australia.

It was laudable when Lillee and Thompson were doing it, it was skill less, crude and barbaric when we were.

It wasn't just him of course, the journalists were equally.complcit. then the establishment followed. But he was the voice of it.

And the thing is you know it was bullshit, just as it was for Murali and Knott. But again, in fairness to him, he kept repeating throughout the exercise, this isnt the best team, but who I want to represent me. What ever the **** that means.

You shouldn’t cry racist over a team selection if he picked other WIs in that lost, like Sobers, Viv, and Worrell.

 

[Coronis]

First off half the lists were garbage and it's alarming, pathetic and hilarious the depths you're willing to descend to prove such a stupid point.

I want to really take my time with this one.

1. It bears repeating that the lists were mostly absolute ****. Lets at least be honest with that one.

2. In almost all of those lists Imran is behind Viv and or Sachin. Are you now endorsing that specialists are better than all rounders?

3. Just to further highlight your desperation, youre highlighting lists that has Imran 16th and 18th, I suppose by brandishing these as evidence you belive that's a fair representation of his ranking? You belive that there's a possibility that Marshall is either the 68th or 75th best cricketer in history? One of them also has Kallis ahead of him. I suppose you're endorsing that as well? Kallis 4 places above Immi?

4. If one genuinely believes that a player is significantly and clearly better than another one who is competing for the same allocated slot, that person will selct the player who they believe to be better in said slot. This is so fundamentally straight forward it doesn’t bear debate. What's the point of being better if you can't make the field. This is why in every sport, , , , even has a team of the year and not a top 10. This is your argument, everyone thinks Imran is better but they don't want to put him on their team, they want to give someone else a chance, you're laughable dude. Youu belive Imran to be better and you include him, you don't afford that level of reason or intelligence to anyone else?

5. If it's not important why raise two of the very few he appears in? I assume that CMJ, Gower, Kimber, Eager, Crowe, Cricinfo, Wisden, Swanton, Boycott all though he was a top 3 player, but thought he couldn't fit into the team? Is it that you think they're stupid or don't understand the game? Which is it? The cope is unreal. CMJ and Gower also does rate Maco higher, but guess that doesn't count either?

6. But this is the most important part, and the one once strongly advocated by @Coronis of all people. It's impossible to compare batsmen to bowlers, far less to then try to incorporate all rounders. It's next to impossible to qualify and objectively list. That's why most people don't list and create teams. That's how brilliance and exceptionalism is displayed and acknowledged. Marshall is widely accepted as the greatest bowler to have played the game, but yeah 65th correlations pretty well to that. Idiocy

Thanks for randomly mentioning me here, and not responding to my earlier post.

Yes inherently imo, comparing batsmen and bowlers directly is stupid. However its easy for me to say Sobers, Kallis, or Imran are better players than other ATG’s, since they are ATG in one discipline and have another discipline where they far outstrip the other primary ATGs.

 

[subshakerz]

Thanks for randomly mentioning me here, and not responding to my earlier post.

Yes inherently imo, comparing batsmen and bowlers directly is stupid. However its easy for me to say Sobers, Kallis, or Imran are better players than other ATG’s, since they are ATG in one discipline and have another discipline where they far outstrip the other primary ATGs.

What about Miller?

 

[kyear2]

Yes he bats at 4 in his career.

That's above 6, not below

Really not following u

 

[subshakerz]

That's above 6, not below

Really not following u

Ok I was taking you literally. Ignore.

 

[kyear2]

Quality of lists doesn’t matter, some are credible some are more adhoc, only need to demonstrate consensus of Imran over Marshall, not every selection.

The point is YOU use pundit consensus to make your arguments. Except it’s clear consensus is Marshall is inferior to Imran.

Imran and Marshall Dont even have the same slot in an ATG XI. Imrans competition is Wasim.

The point is not all ATG XI have Marshall. Plenty dont. I don’t care though.

Imran and Marshall are pretty straightforward comparison. Imran is comparable as a bowler but has batting and captaincy over Marshall, hence is better.

The word you were looking for is garbage, not adhoc.

The only consensus exists in tour head. And that's done. We shall leave it there.

There are 3 slots, it's not the spinner where only one gets in.

But it's not that simple, it's never been that simple. If it were his name would be third on ever list, this can't be that hard to comprehend.

If it were that simple he would also be in each of those things over Wasim well.

If you're ever interested, I can give you the full reason I go with Wasim over Imran and Steyn, and it's not because one cheated, it's multifaceted and more than a little crowd sourced.

 

[kyear2]

You shouldn’t cry racist over a team selection if he picked other WIs in that lost, like Sobers, Viv, and Worrell.

Thats where you're not listening, not surprisingly. It's based on comments he made towards the bowlers and fans for over a decade. And rhe thing is I've posted the videos and articles here before. You are the expert on finding things Ive posted, go look for them.

 

[subshakerz]

The word you were looking for is garbage, not adhoc.

The only consensus exists in tour head. And that's done. We shall leave it there.

There are 3 slots, it's not the spinner where only one gets in.

But it's not that simple, it's never been that simple. If it were his name would be third on ever list, this can't be that hard to comprehend.

If it were that simple he would also be in each of those things over Wasim well.

If you're ever interested, I can give you the full reason I go with Wasim over Imran and Steyn, and it's not because one cheated, it's multifaceted and more than a little crowd sourced.

I gave you seven lists, including one from a peer rated ESPN panel, from Widen, and others. Do you have seven lists showing Marshall above Imran? No, you don't. Because consensus is Imran is better.

Great glad you agree Marshall doesn't compete with Imran, Wasim does. That lays to rest your argument about using Imran's ATG placement.

I never had issues with those putting Wasim in an ATG XI instead of Imran because of the left armer reasoning and Wasim can still bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Thats where you're not listening, not surprisingly. It's based on comments he made towards the bowlers and fans for over a decade. And rhe thing is I've posted the videos and articles here before. You are the expert on finding things Ive posted, go look for them.

Ok so you agree calling Benaud a racist over the ATG XI he picks is wrong? Good.

 

[kyear2]

Thanks for randomly mentioning me here, and not responding to my earlier post.

Yes inherently imo, comparing batsmen and bowlers directly is stupid. However its easy for me to say Sobers, Kallis, or Imran are better players than other ATG’s, since they are ATG in one discipline and have another discipline where they far outstrip the other primary ATGs.

There's multiple reasons why you'll still never see a list with that top 4. Kallis for all of his stats never had the impact of a Punter far less a Lara or Sachin. Imran I'll leave alone because that's been done to death.

Was watching a selection series video last night, Kallis never made it past the first round of eliminations as a batsman and for some as an all rounder either.

Cricket has never been a collection of stats, but since you decry s/ r, peer ratings and the eye test, I can't say I'm remotely surprised. It's never been played on slreadsheets.

Subz knows better though.