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Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

Rank them.

  • Slip cordon > lower order batting > 5th bowler

  • Slip cordon > 5th bowler > lower order batting

  • Lower order batting > Slip cordon > 5th bowler

  • Lower order batting > 5th bowler > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > lower order batting > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > slip cordon > lower order batting

  • All are equally relevant


Results are only viewable after voting.

subshakerz

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Dude, sorry, I was only just able to find the Benedict Bermange list you referneced. OH my god, that one has Kallis over Imran, you were desperate weren't you, lol

Dude that list was ****, and was roundly panned in the thread in real time.
The quality of a single list is irrelevant. We are talking about consensus across most rankings, and it is clear Imran is ahead of Marshall.

You are just butt hurt that you have no standing to justify Marshall as no.3. Nobody ranks him that high!
 

subshakerz

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Well if Benaud is racist he won't pick Imran either, or well Imran is so good he forced a racist to include him.
Benaud also selected Gavaskar over Hutton. One can question his judgment but can't call him racist.
 

Agonizingly Awkward

First Class Debutant
Well if Benaud is racist he won't pick Imran either, or well Imran is so good he forced a racist to include him.
I'm not saying Benaud is a racist but just because you are not racist to one race doesn't mean you are not racist to another race.

Anyway Kyear2 is just dumb.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
What players have RSA selected in the last 7 series who would not be selected on bowling alone? Mulder (usually considered more of a batting AR TBF, but has played as 1/4 bowlers on this time). Bosch and Muthasamy (bits and pieces). Presumably Subrayen (bowler who can bat) and vaguely possibly Yusuf (same). So... plenty.

It happens pretty often in the real world. It is really just a case of resources.


I understand why you dont like the world failed. 'Did not succeed with the bat' instead.

But you recognize that stacking the tail will result in it happening more often?

I did say earlier in thread that I was voting for the batting of 1 tail ender vs a 5th bowler. Which is reasonably close. Comparing the secondary disciplines of 4 players vs 1 is a farce, and not worth considering.

I love my extra batting, and extra bowling. I am far less committed to picking sides in this than you.
Stacking the tail could result in it happening more often, but also decreasing the potency of the attack.
Hence why it doesn't happen more often.

Don't know how it's 4, it's at max 3 and more often than not it's only two. Not to mention the lower batting examples included contributions from way more than no. 8's.

And yes, you may like your extra batting and bowling, but over the history of this great game, especially since the war, and the emergence of the pace emergence, imo there's no doubt which has been more important, more aligned to successful teams and if that aspect of your team is weak, that it's extremely difficult to overcome.

But I know there's a subset of the forum that stubbornly adheres to preferences based on favorite players than actual anecdotal and empirical evidence, not to add personal grievances.

But the amount of great teams that dominated home and away without "extra batting and bowling" is is testament to this. Regardless of your preferences.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Oh here's that strawman again. Do you actually think people who pick Imran/Hadlee any other bowling AR in an XI are selecting them primarily for their batting?
If you're selcring them over bowlers you perveive to be better, what basis is that on?
 

Johan

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And yes, you may like your extra batting and bowling, but over the history of this great game, especially since the war, and the emergence of the pace emergence, imo there's no doubt which has been more important, more aligned to successful teams and if that aspect of your team is weak, that it's extremely difficult to overcome.

But I know there's a subset of the forum that stubbornly adheres to preferences based on favorite players than actual anecdotal and empirical evidence, not to add personal grievances.

But the amount of great teams that dominated home and away without "extra batting and bowling" is is testament to this. Regardless of your preferences.
Yes, everyone who disagrees with your perception of bowling all rounders have a favouritism bias and is stubborn and in denial of empirical evidence that just happens to have never been posted by anyone in the history of our species.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Warne was very good at slip.

You were the one who kept talking about how Aus 2000s had a great slip. Now you are reversing yourself.
And he was the weak link in it. Hayden was considerably better. He wasn't horrible, definitely better than decent, but he wasn't the best behind there.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
No.

The easiest way to see who is regarded as a better cricketer is to see who is ranked higher.

This point is so elemental it cannot be debated.

The only reason you are bringing in ATG XIs is because you know in a direct ranking, Marshall generally gets ranked behind Imran.

I gave you seven lists just now where Imran is ranked higher. Please show me as many lists where Marshall is higher, and we can talk.
First off half the lists were garbage and it's alarming, pathetic and hilarious the depths you're willing to descend to prove such a stupid point.

I want to really take my time with this one.

1. It bears repeating that the lists were mostly absolute ****. Lets at least be honest with that one.

2. In almost all of those lists Imran is behind Viv and or Sachin. Are you now endorsing that specialists are better than all rounders?

3. Just to further highlight your desperation, youre highlighting lists that has Imran 16th and 18th, I suppose by brandishing these as evidence you belive that's a fair representation of his ranking? You belive that there's a possibility that Marshall is either the 68th or 75th best cricketer in history? One of them also has Kallis ahead of him. I suppose you're endorsing that as well? Kallis 4 places above Immi? 😆 🤣 😂

4. If one genuinely believes that a player is significantly and clearly better than another one who is competing for the same allocated slot, that person will selct the player who they believe to be better in said slot. This is so fundamentally straight forward it doesn’t bear debate. What's the point of being better if you can't make the field. This is why in every sport, ⚽, 🏈, 🏀, even 🏏 has a team of the year and not a top 10. This is your argument, everyone thinks Imran is better but they don't want to put him on their team, they want to give someone else a chance, you're laughable dude. Youu belive Imran to be better and you include him, you don't afford that level of reason or intelligence to anyone else?

5. If it's not important why raise two of the very few he appears in? I assume that CMJ, Gower, Kimber, Eager, Crowe, Cricinfo, Wisden, Swanton, Boycott all though he was a top 3 player, but thought he couldn't fit into the team? Is it that you think they're stupid or don't understand the game? Which is it? The cope is unreal. CMJ and Gower also does rate Maco higher, but guess that doesn't count either?

6. But this is the most important part, and the one once strongly advocated by @Coronis of all people. It's impossible to compare batsmen to bowlers, far less to then try to incorporate all rounders. It's next to impossible to qualify and objectively list. That's why most people don't list and create teams. That's how brilliance and exceptionalism is displayed and acknowledged. Marshall is widely accepted as the greatest bowler to have played the game, but yeah 65th correlations pretty well to that. Idiocy
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
The quality of a single list is irrelevant. We are talking about consensus across most rankings, and it is clear Imran is ahead of Marshall.

You are just butt hurt that you have no standing to justify Marshall as no.3. Nobody ranks him that high!
I don't pretend that he's widely rated as 3rd.

I'm saying that as the best bowler ever, I dont see an argument below 5. Hobbs, Sachin only two with a viable argument.

I've sent you lists where Marshall are ahead and considerably more credible ones.

There's no consensus for your lord and savior and certainly none where he's above Sachin, Viv, Warne etc.

I personally don't see how a bowler that most rate at the bottom of the top 10, consensus around here of 8th or 9th depending on if Barnes is included and and will soon slip below Bumrah probaly bringing him to 10th? Even his fans here have him there. You can check everyone loves to post lists.

How can the 10th best bowler (i know you have him 5th, but of course you do) be the 3rd best cricketer ever because he scored 10 runs a match higher than the best? Really?

The reason there's more consensus in AT teams than lists is because lists dont make sense, not between disciplines. It's too damn subjective and everyone's expectations are different.

Anyways, not responding to anymore Imran posts, not the thread for that.
 

Johan

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I personally don't see how a bowler that most rate at the bottom of the top 10, consensus around here of 8th or 9th depending on if Barnes is included and and will soon slip below Bumrah probaly bringing him to 10th? Even his fans here have him there. You can check everyone loves to post lists.

How can the 10th best bowler (i know you have him 5th, but of course you do) be the 3rd best cricketer ever because he scored 10 runs a match higher than the best? Really?


Imran's ten extra runs, which would be fifteen extra if Marshall played for an average team, are just more valuable than Marshall's one run better average duh.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Will never get over the hilarity of calling Benaud racist for a freaking ATG XI.
No, I call him racist due to a long hypocritical list of comments made over a decade about a strategy that we simply adapted from Australia.

It was laudable when Lillee and Thompson were doing it, it was skill less, crude and barbaric when we were.

It wasn't just him of course, the journalists were equally.complcit. then the establishment followed. But he was the voice of it.

And the thing is you know it was bullshit, just as it was for Murali and Knott. But again, in fairness to him, he kept repeating throughout the exercise, this isnt the best team, but who I want to represent me. What ever the **** that means.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Well if Benaud is racist he won't pick Imran either, or well Imran is so good he forced a racist to include him.
You guys can't get your head out of your asses because it helps your point. Imran is worthy of any 1st team selection, it's subjective.

I recommend you go back and listen to his comments over that decade and a half.

I've posted videos on multiple occasions, no kne wants to watch then. And oh, btw these videos weren't published by us, they just became self aware.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
I personally don't see how a bowler that most rate at the bottom of the top 10, consensus around here of 8th or 9th depending on if Barnes is included and and will soon slip below Bumrah probaly bringing him to 10th? Even his fans here have him there. You can check everyone loves to post lists.

How can the 10th best bowler (i know you have him 5th, but of course you do) be the 3rd best cricketer ever because he scored 10 runs a match higher than the best? Really?


Imran's ten extra runs, which would be fifteen extra if Marshall played for an average team, are just more valuable than Marshall's one run better average duh.
That requires the leap that soneone belived he was one run better with the ball.

Do you?
 

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