Group L - England, Croatia, Ghana, Panama

[Chin Music]

I watched this one a few weeks back too. What struck me was quite how outlandish the expectations were. Hard-fought wins over tough Paraguay and Ecuador teams were treated as if they were a national disgrace. Even the pundits and players looking back have a bizarre fatalism about that team, saying things like "it was obviously never good enough to win it" when they went out on penalties in the QF in a creditable performance against a strong opponent. It was one of the stronger England teams at a major tournament over the past 50 years, ugly but functional and capable of competing with anyone, but everyone was just so bitter than it wasn't even better. Rooney was the only one who felt like he was grounded in reality, probably because he was too young to have fully absorbed the disillusioning experiences that created such negative vibes.

The fans and media caught themselves on somewhat by the time Southgate was in charge. When England beat Colombia on penalties in the 2018 second round, the reaction was an outpouring of joy, which is how it should be.

My recollection is that the disappointment was largely about the approach over the tournament than the outcome. They were capable of playing better football than they actually did. I don't recall too many people being that surprised that we lost on penalties to Portugal, I mean beating a few of the very best teams is always a tough ask, no matter how capable the team is. I think with 2018, there was a lot less expectation on that side because a) they had 4 pretty miserable tournaments since 2010 and b) there really wasn't that much talent in the squad, especially in the midfield compared with the 2006 squad.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I don't think there's too much doubt we exceeded pre-tourny expectations in 2018. As CM observes our efforts in 2010, 2012, 2014 & 2016 (and obviously not even qualifying for Euro 2008) had so thoroughly extinguished any sense of hope it was a nice surprise we just weren't embarrassingly plop.

It's just annoying with the way the draw had opened up that we didn't make the final against a pretty average Croatia and seemed to lose belief in ourselves as the game went on.

2006, obviously we were traditionally gung-ho/jingoistic beforehand, but it wasn't entirely based on John Bull BS and nowt more. Rooney looked a generational talent (a far more developed player than Ronaldo at the time) and Owen (broke metatarsal notwithstanding) wasn't the busted flush he subsequently proved to be. &, at 26, should've been approaching his peak.

 

[Uppercut]

Looking back it's a strong but unbalanced squad that was always going to be tricky to make an elite unit out of. 4-4-2 didn't suit Gerrard or Lampard, and 4-3-3 didn't suit Beckham or Owen. Rooney was patently unfit and in the documentary he even says he shouldn't have gone. When you try to build an XI it either looks tactically shambolic, includes a few average players like Crouch or Lennon in place of much better talents, or both. A solid defensive team that hopes to win games through flashes of individual quality is what they were and I don't think they could ever have been anything more.

The tendency at the time was to dismiss cohesion problems and say things like "you just pick your best players, they're world-class and they should be able to figure it out". This in turn led to a lack of respect for B-tier nations, because pundits were unwilling to accept that a well-organized unit could compete with a team of stars. Ecuador had beaten Brazil and Argentina in qualifying, but the English media treated them like a speed bump because they hadn't heard of any of their players.

There'll always be some jingoism and a tendency to overrate your own country's prospects is all part of the fun. What stands out relative to other tournaments is the negativity that followed victories in 2006. In the documentary, Rooney describes feeling elated coming off the pitch after scraping wins against teams that pushed them all the way, only to discover that the national media response was one of frustration and anger at how difficult those games had been. And I do think that's changed. Euro 2024 might be a better example than 2018, because they really were worse than they should have been, but the country didn't think it was too good to unreservedly celebrate a scrappy win over Switzerland.

 

[Pothas]

I dunno about 2024. Southgate got a huge amount of criticism through that whole tournament.

Agree on 2006 though. Win on penalties against Portugal and everything about how that tournament is viewed would have changed.

 

[Molehill]

I dunno about 2024. Southgate got a huge amount of criticism through that whole tournament.

Is that not essentially because expectations had reached the levels of the early 2000's again? And to be fair, they never actually played that well, but what they did do (which previous teams haven't) was found a way to win knockout matches.

 

[BoyBrumby]

We arguably underperformed in 2024 in the wanky, aesthetic "not looking good" kinda way (worth noting that precisely none of our group stage or second round opponents qualified for 2026), but 2nd was more or less (in my mind at least) about where our seeding would've had us before the tournament.

Looking at it as objectively as an Englishman can, probably only Spain and France had stronger squads than we did, at least on paper.

 

[Pothas]

Oh they were awful in 2024. The biggest difference between the Southgate era and the Sven one was the luck of the draws (and winning on penalties.)

It felt completely different though which is where I agree with Uppercut but I do think 2024 expectations had gone up again and it was a bit more like it used to be.

 

[Molehill]

Looking at it as objectively as an Englishman can, probably only Spain and France had stronger squads than we did, at least on paper.

I think you could easily argue it's fairly similar in this tournament, and I'm not convinced by the Spanish squad at all this time. The French on the other hand look by far the strongest. The other particularly strong one in my eyes is Portugal, the problem they have is that old fella up front whose ego they have to panda to.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Oh they were awful in 2024. The biggest difference between the Southgate era and the Sven one was the luck of the draws (and winning on penalties.)

It felt completely different though which is where I agree with Uppercut but I do think 2024 expectations had gone up again and it was a bit more like it used to be.

Underrated virtue, IMHO.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think you could easily argue it's fairly similar in this tournament, and I'm not convinced by the Spanish squad at all this time. The French on the other hand look by far the strongest. The other particularly strong one in my eyes is Portugal, the problem they have is that old fella up front whose ego they have to panda to.

Can't quite shake off the feeling our squad doesn't look as strong either though, but.

We've no Walker, Trippier, Shaw, Alexander-Arnold, Wharton, Bowen, Palmer or Foden this time.

But we do have Djed "****ing" Spence, Noni Madueke and the ghost of Jordan Hendersons past. Um, yeah. Woo-hoo.

 

[Uppercut]

We arguably underperformed in 2024 in the wanky, aesthetic "not looking good" kinda way (worth noting that precisely none of our group stage or second round opponents qualified for 2026), but 2nd was more or less (in my mind at least) about where our seeding would've had us before the tournament.

Looking at it as objectively as an Englishman can, probably only Spain and France had stronger squads than we did, at least on paper.

2024 England wasn't just a wanky aesthetic underperformance. That's what we saw from Arsenal this season - a quality side, but one that isn't much fun to watch because it only excels at the ugliest parts at the game. 2024 England played very badly and needed a lot to go their way to make the final.

 

[Molehill]

Can't quite shake off the feeling our squad doesn't look as strong either though, but.

We've no Walker, Trippier, Shaw, Alexander-Arnold, Wharton, Bowen, Palmer or Foden this time.

But we do have Djed "****ing" Spence, Noni Madueke and the ghost of Jordan Hendersons past. Um, yeah. Woo-hoo.

Some of those were unselectable on current form. Walker had become a liability anyway, Foden rarely had a decent game, and I can't believe you included Bowen!! Instead we have in form players like Rogers, O'Reilly and Anderson who are just as good as those they've replaced.

Possibly the squad was stronger in 2024, but it somehow managed to under-perform whilst making the Final!

 

[BoyBrumby]

2024 England wasn't just a wanky aesthetic underperformance. That's what we saw from Arsenal this season - a quality side, but one that isn't much fun to watch because it only excels at the ugliest parts at the game. 2024 England played very badly and needed a lot to go their way to make the final.

Wouldn't disagree with that (although every tournament finalist except the absolute primo Brazil 1970esque teams arguably needs a fair few of the chips to fall in their favour), but my point was that if one had offered me runners-up before Euro 2024 I'd have said "Yeah, fair enough".

I wouldn't have expected us to look so horseplop doing it, but I'd rather be a rather spawny winner (well, runner-up) than a gallant, free-flowing loser.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Some of those were unselectable on current form. Walker had become a liability anyway, Foden rarely had a decent game, and I can't believe you included Bowen!! Instead we have in form players like Rogers, O'Reilly and Anderson who are just as good as those they've replaced.

Possibly the squad was stronger in 2024, but it somehow managed to under-perform whilst making the Final!

Bowen > Madueke. It's a hill I'd die on.

But yeah, fair enough if we don't win the world cup it won't be because we didn't select Jarrod Bowen.

 

[Molehill]

Wouldn't disagree with that (although every tournament finalist except the absolute primo Brazil 1970esque teams arguably needs a fair few of the chips to fall in their favour), but my point was that if one had offered me runners-up before Euro 2024 I'd have said "Yeah, fair enough".

I wouldn't have expected us to look so horseplop doing it, but I'd rather be a rather spawny winner (well, runner-up) than a gallant, free-flowing loser.

There's been plenty of times when things haven't gone England's way too..........90, 96, 98, 02, 04, 06 were all somewhat unlucky departures from tournaments. We were shite in 2010 but you still wonder what might've happened had Lampard's 'goal' been allowed. I'd also prefer the spawny winners to gallant losers tag.

 

[Uppercut]

There's been plenty of times when things haven't gone England's way too..........90, 96, 98, 02, 04, 06 were all somewhat unlucky departures from tournaments. We were shite in 2010 but you still wonder what might've happened had Lampard's 'goal' been allowed. I'd also prefer the spawny winners to gallant losers tag.

Can't believe you would have the gall to claim '96 after the job the referees did on Spain in the quarters.

 

[Molehill]

Can't believe you would have the gall to claim '96 after the job the referees did on Spain in the quarters.

It was still an unlucky departure from a tournament, just not as unlucky as Spain's!! Probably not ironic at all that the bloke who missed that penalty would end up having a far better record in them as a manager.

 

[Chin Music]

Spain were always the real bridesmaids at international tournaments before 2008. Despite always having high class players and 2 obvious mega clubs for an eternity, they seemed to choke at big tournaments. The only cack side that I recall of theirs was the 1982 one, when they were garbage at their own world cup.

 

[wpdavid]

Can't quite shake off the feeling our squad doesn't look as strong (as in 2024)

Absolutely true imo. But maybe the key word is 'look'. As Molehill said, there's a case for arguing that Rogers and Anderson are actually better than the guys who played in 2024, albeit not as celebrated as Palmer and Foden.

 

[Pothas]

I think you could easily argue it's fairly similar in this tournament, and I'm not convinced by the Spanish squad at all this time. The French on the other hand look by far the strongest. The other particularly strong one in my eyes is Portugal, the problem they have is that old fella up front whose ego they have to panda to.

I know they have a few injury concerns but isn't the Spanish squad just pretty similar to 2024?

Agree on France though. Whenever you see the squad they look miles better than anyone else but that has been the case for ages.