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England players and selection discussion thread

tooextracool

International Coach
I wonder if the churn of garbage openers during the 2010s meant England went the other way and kept Crawley far longer than he deserved.

The previous poster names 4 guys, but there were a whole bunch of others between Strauss and Crawley/Duckett - Compton, Lyth, Denly, Jennings, Roy, Robson, Hales, Stoneman, Moeen for a bit. I've probably forgotten a couple. And they were all no better and in most cases worse than Crawley.
That's exactly my point. In the absence of anyone consistently scoring runs at the top of the order in county cricket, we had 5+ years (and further if you look at those who partnered with Cook as you noted) where we selected every average opener in county cricket based on 1-2 successful seasons and they were all worse than Crawley. Had any of them played 64 tests, they almost certainly would not have averaged more or scored at anywhere near the same rate. It's only really in the last year when we've had any real candidates stake a claim based on consistent performance and even the ones now are hardly setting the world alight.
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
Do you think The WTC is good for Test cricket.It's certainly not perfect but it does give some context to the matches.

As to your match-fixing reference which I assume was made in jest,I think that all the major Test-playing countries were caught up, and had players implicated,in betting scandals.
Nothing new of course.It goes back to the late 18th century.The Rev. Lord Frederic Beauclerk,a former President of MCC boasted of making 600 guineas a year from gambling and was not averse to sharp practice and his contemporary,the professional all-rounder,William Lambert,one of the greatest players of the time,was banned for life for match fixing.
Some 50 years later the brilliant keeper-batter,Ted Pooley,missed the very first Test of all,in March 1877 at Melbourne.He was languishing in a NZ jail accused of a ( clever and brilliant) betting scam.He never did play in a Test.In his later years,as he subsequently stared into the cinders of his fire,I wonder if he ever sadly pondered on this? [Actually he died,penniless in the workhouse,so he would have rarely sat before a warm,glowing fire]
Yeah I like the WTC concept, it does mean there's something on every match so if you're 2-0 with one to play then don't take your foot off the pedal and go for the 3-0.
I was of course 'winking at the camera' with the match fix comment, but Pak did seem to go through a phase where if you beat them you were never quite sure.
Were any English lads done for it as such? I honestly can't remember any although a few admitted they had been made offers.
Thanks for the history lesson, and there I was thinking Hansie Cronje invented it!!
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
I dont think there is any question that Stokes justifies his place in the side because he helps balance it and adds value with a wholehearted effort in the field and with the ball. That said, his batting position in the side is a bigger issue. In my view, there is absolutely no way Stokes is a top 6 batter in the country yet he regularly bats above Smith. His record in Australia and India (and generally speaking, the subcontinent) is disastrous going back from the start of his career and he's shown remarkable consistency in his inability to cope with any kind of spin bowling. Some of his comments about players being soft etc. in the Ashes was a bit OTT when you consider that he was one of the worst performing bats on the tour (and was on the prior trip to Australia as well).
Like you I really can't see the justification for Stokes batting at #6. His record simply doesn't justify it and he does seem to have gone backwards as a batsman. Only problem is Jamie's hit the buffers as well and does Stokes really merit being much more than a 5th bowler? It wasn't long ago he literally couldn't bowl and was playing as a specialist batsman, which can only really be done 1-6.
It's another where there's no obvious candidate putting their hand up saying 'pick me' because if there was then there might be a lot more heat on Ben's position. He could do with a couple of major contributions in this NZ series just to keep the wolves away.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
International sport is a lot different to running a club side, namely that when you run an international team you have a limited or fixed player pool. It makes sense to identify the best players available at your disposal, pick those as far as is possible and then cultivate a 'style of play' around that.

Many of us will be football fans as well and we've seen when international coaches have picked inferior players who suited 'their style' to clearly better options who would have performed at a higher level. Crawley's as good an example of 'style over ability' as I've ever seen. Had he been a middle-paced batsman with the same average (or even a slightly higher one) he'd have been out a while ago. No question.

Watching England insist on playing aggressive cricket, only to persistently find themselves 30-3, has been like a trip to the world's most evil dentist. FFS just let a few go outside off stump, get yourself in for an hour or so and earn the right to play later.

The lads who have just been picked are hardly Cook or Boycott are they?!!

Other question on the brain here is...how long does Stokes justify his individual place in the side? I've got a feeling this might be the summer that question comes to a mushroom cloud...
For the record, there is a precedent cricketing comparison in the form of Kris Srikkanth who didn't play quite as many tests as Crawley but was picked regularly over almost a decade for his 'aggressive play and attacking cricketing strokes' and who was an obvious foil for a certain diminutive partner and who was by far the better player of the two. Kris averaged less than 30 and only scored two test tons in his career. All is to say is that, there have been times in history where you pick the best of a poor bunch to fit the role you want to fill until there is a better option.
 

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Like you I really can't see the justification for Stokes batting at #6. His record simply doesn't justify it and he does seem to have gone backwards as a batsman. Only problem is Jamie's hit the buffers as well and does Stokes really merit being much more than a 5th bowler? It wasn't long ago he literally couldn't bowl and was playing as a specialist batsman, which can only really be done 1-6.
It's another where there's no obvious candidate putting their hand up saying 'pick me' because if there was then there might be a lot more heat on Ben's position. He could do with a couple of major contributions in this NZ series just to keep the wolves away.
Stokes has arguably been England’s best bowler for the last 12 months

Probably an unpopular opinion but he’s always been very overrated as a batsman and his reputation owes much to a couple of great knocks rather than consistency
 

Hungry Llama

State Regular
Lions squad vs SAfy A

Dan Mousley (Warwickshire – captain), Charlie Allison (Essex), Henry Crocombe (Sussex – second four-day match), Eddie Jack (Hampshire), Ben Geddes (Middlesex), Ben Mayes (Hampshire), Ben McKinney (Durham), Tom Lawes (Surrey), Alfie Ogborne (Somerset – first four-day match), Liam Patterson-White (Nottinghamshire), James Sales (Northamptonshire), Naavya Sharma (Middlesex), Mitchell Stanley (Lancashire), Asa Tribe (Glamorgan), James Wharton (Yorkshire)
 

Gob

International Coach
England squad for first Test against New Zealand: Ben Stokes, Rehan Ahmed, Gus Atkinson, Sonny Baker, Shoaib Bashir, Jacob Bethell, Harry Brook, Ben Duckett, Matthew Fisher, Emilio Gay, James Rew, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Jamie Smith, Josh Tongue.
dont be sad its over. be happy it happened
 

Jane Austen

State 12th Man
For the record, there is a precedent cricketing comparison in the form of Kris Srikkanth who didn't play quite as many tests as Crawley but was picked regularly over almost a decade for his 'aggressive play and attacking cricketing strokes' and who was an obvious foil for a certain diminutive partner and who was by far the better player of the two. Kris averaged less than 30 and only scored two test tons in his career. All is to say is that, there have been times in history where you pick the best of a poor bunch to fit the role you want to fill until there is a better option.
But,contra,Chetan Chauhan was a steady,but limited,defensive opening batter who played in 40 Tests,averaging 31,and without ever making even one century.
There are cricketers who have been persevered with over the years when their average does not seem to deserve such faith.
A couple of not too ancient examples come from New Zealand.One,Trevor Franklin was a very limited player indeed.6' 4" tall,he sometimes seemed to struggle to hit the ball off the square.He averaged just 23 with just one very painstaking century,at Lord's in 1990----101 in over SEVEN hours from 310 balls,every one of which I watched!! NZ stuck with him for 31 Tests.Martin Guptill,also tall,was a very different player.A breezy,agressive but technically rather loose batter,NZ played him in 47 Tests but his career average was under 30.
The original predecessor to Franklin was short,stocky Alec Bannerman,younger brother to Charles Bannerman,scorer of Test cricket's first century.In direct contrast to his dashing brother,Alec was a stonewallers dream but in those early days of Tests in the 1880s Australia were greatful for sturdy defence even though he averaged only 23.08 in his 28 Tests with a highest score of 91.Still,he played 25 more Tests than his much more talented brother.

As a contrast consider the fate of Vinod Kambli.A Test average of 54.20 with 4 centuries,two of which were succesive DOUBLE centuries,yet he played only 17,yes 17,Tests,the last one when he was still only 24! [It can be assumed there were other forces at work]

The above are just a few examples of the fickleness of Test selection even without considering Messrs Ganteaume and Redmond.
 
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AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
As a contrast consider the fate of Vinod Kambli.A Test average of 54.20 with 4 centuries,two of which were succesive DOUBLE centuries,yet he played only 17,yes 17,Tests,the last one when he was still only 24! [It can be assumed there were other forces at work]
One of the forces at work would be that when he was left out for the 1996 tour of England (having failed to reach 50 in his last 7 Tests), Dravid and Ganguly got into the side, and stayed in it: the Indian middle-order was basically Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Azharuddin/Laxman for the next 10 years, with no-one else getting much of a look-in. Kambli did play over 100 ODIs, with a reasonable but not amazing record.

Kambli's Cricinfo page says: "His footwork was dazzling against the spinners - he once smashed Shane Warne for 22 runs in an over - but he often got himself into a tangle against the short ball, and his flash to gully soon became a trademark. Kambli's problems were compounded by indiscipline and an obsession with the width of his bat-handle, which had nine grips on at one time."
 

Ali TT

Cricketer Of The Year
Stokes has arguably been England’s best bowler for the last 12 months

Probably an unpopular opinion but he’s always been very overrated as a batsman and his reputation owes much to a couple of great knocks rather than consistency
I'm not sure who over rates him a batter. I suspect most England fans know him to be a game changer on his day but inconsistent and often frustrating in the way he cheaply he gives his wicket away.
 

kevinw

International Regular
Few examples of batters who play an inexplicable number of Tests with poor averages but usually in rubbish teams - Ashraful in Bangladesh's early days in international cricket, and the Windies always have a few; Devon Smith or John Campbell. I doubt these teams realistically have anyone better.
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
But,contra,Chetan Chauhan was a steady,but limited,defensive opening batter who played in 40 Tests,averaging 31,and without ever making even one century.
There are cricketers who have been persevered with over the years when their average does not seem to deserve such faith.
A couple of not too ancient examples come from New Zealand.One,Trevor Franklin was a very limited player indeed.6' 4" tall,he sometimes seemed to struggle to hit the ball off the square.He averaged just 23 with just one very painstaking century,at Lord's in 1990----101 in over SEVEN hours from 310 balls,every one of which I watched!! NZ stuck with him for 31 Tests.Martin Guptill,also tall,was a very different player.A breezy,agressive but technically rather loose batter,NZ played him in 47 Tests but his career average was under 30.
The original predecessor to Franklin was short,stocky Alec Bannerman,younger brother to Charles Bannerman,scorer of Test cricket's first century.In direct contrast to his dashing brother,Alec was a stonewallers dream but in those early days of Tests in the 1880s Australia were greatful for sturdy defence even though he averaged only 23.08 in his 28 Tests with a highest score of 91.Still,he played 25 more Tests than his much more talented brother.

As a contrast consider the fate of Vinod Kambli.A Test average of 54.20 with 4 centuries,two of which were succesive DOUBLE centuries,yet he played only 17,yes 17,Tests,the last one when he was still only 24! [It can be assumed there were other forces at work]

The above are just a few examples of the fickleness of Test selection even without considering Messrs Ganteaume and Redmond.
That was a nice read, thanks - it prompted me to look Trevor Franklin up. A test career strike rate of 26 runs every 100 balls!!
If England were batting they'd cut to the news for 10 minutes and come back to find 190-3 had turned into 200-7.
When Franklin was batting you came back to discover he was still on the same score.
Doing the maths 101 in 310 balls is Gilchrist-esque by his standards. He must have been dizzy when he got back in the hutch...
 

Jane Austen

State 12th Man
Few examples of batters who play an inexplicable number of Tests with poor averages but usually in rubbish teams - Ashraful in Bangladesh's early days in international cricket, and the Windies always have a few; Devon Smith or John Campbell. I doubt these teams realistically have anyone better.
To describe Mohammad Ashraful as an underachieving prodigy of extraordinary talent would be a gross understatement.
At the age of a day before his 17th birthday or 17 and about 5 weeks (depending on who you believe),Ashraful made his Test debut for Bangladesh v Sri Lanka at the SCC,Columbo in September 2001.Sri Lanka won by an innings and 137 runs---nothing suprising there.Murali took 10 wickets in the match----again,nothing suprising. In the Bangladeshi 2nd innings though the infant debutant made 114 of the most delectable and charming runs against Chaminda Vaas as well as the smiling bowling assassin.
By the way,the man-of-the-match award was given jointly to Murali and Ashraful---typically,Murali gifted his half-share to the debutant.
And throughout the rest of his career Mohammad Ashraful continued to vacilate between the occasional innings of sublime charm and the many more innings of crass shots and lack of concentration.
Ashrafal represented his country in 61 Test matches---his average---24.He made six Test centuries.No one else has ever made six or more centuries at such an astonishingly low average.
Sadly,his Test career was effectively brought to an end when he recieved a 3 year suspension for involvement in match fixing.

Mention of West Indies brings to mind Dwayne Smith.As a 20 year old on debut,it seemed he had a glittering career ahead of him.
He clattered a run-a-ball 100 against a strong Sth African team on debut but,after 10 Tests and an average of 24.61,his Test career was over.

In an earlier post I mentioned the sturdy stonewaller,Alec Bannerman.
His direct antithesis and contemporary,George Bonnor was 6'6" tall and a perfectly proportioned 17 stone---a veritable Hercules.
He was a magnificent and spectacular long hitter of a cricket ball and was picked by Australia for 17 Tests despite an average of just 17 with but one century.However he was a crowd-pleaser who would attract extra spectators and thus boost the gate reciepts which, dare I suggest,may have had an influence on his selection.
 

Hungry Llama

State Regular
If CC form counted for anything, England surely should have chosen Sam Cook over Fisher. Seems Cooks lackluster perf in the zimbab test last year has damned him for ever.
 
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LangleyburyCCPlayer

International Debutant
Suspect it's Robinson or Cook not both but then I don't think Fisher should be here either.
I think Cook (and Potts for that matter) were a little unlucky not to get picked over Fisher, but Robinson has proven Test pedigree, if the selectors have faith in his fitness, then it’s a no-brainer to pick him, and Atkinson and Tongue, as well as Archer and Carse when they’re fit, aren’t going anywhere, so I think the likes of Fisher, Baker, Potts and Cook are fighting to be an emergency backup in case of an injury crisis
 

Hungry Llama

State Regular
last year was a bit of struggle for Atkinson esp with fitness, lets hope he stays clear of injuries and JT doesnt go crazy in the nets.
 

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