Best Bowlers to Debut post 2000

[capt_Luffy]

on Shami vs Starc...

• Shami in Australia is better than Starc in India.
• Starc in England is better than Shami in England.
• Shami in South Africa is much better than Starc in South Africa.
• Shami in New Zealand is better than Starc in New Zealand.
• Starc in Sri Lanka is better than Shami in Sri Lanka
• Both are good/great at home.

Starc has an overall better career average, Shami had a better redball average. Overall, on quality, I feel Shami is equal or slightly better as a Test pacer.

Shami is ATG at Home, Starc merely good. 22 in India vs 25 in Australia for a pacer. Also the gap in Shami in Australia and Starc in India/Pakistan/UAE is MASSIVE

I don't think Shami is much better in SA. Starc has played only one series there in which he won Aus the first game. Shami has gotten absolute horrendous pitches (for batting) which helps his avg. NZ is basically 2 vs 3 games where both have been quite poor. Starc has also got almost double the wickets of Shami going back again to your point of fitness. Shami has again missed a lot of tests due to fitness. I think Starc has to be rated above Shami now

No offense, but Centurion? Shami has delivered massively in SA. It's simply wrong to say they are comparable there

 

[Thala_0710]

Shami is ATG at Home, Starc merely good. 22 in India vs 25 in Australia for a pacer. Also the gap in Shami in Australia and Starc in India/Pakistan/UAE is MASSIVE

No offense, but Centurion? Shami has delivered massively in SA. It's simply wrong to say they are comparable there

Centurion was a great performance ofc. But the overall bowling avg of pacers in matches involving Shami in SA is less than 24, which means Shami is basically par overall on avg.
My point was Starc's only played 1 series in which he did win 1 game for his team (not Josh or Pat even with that ball). So it's a bit unfair on Starc imo, considering Shami's not been great there, he's been fine to good id say

 

[capt_Luffy]

That’s a dumb comparison you just did.

shami in Aus va Starc in Eng??
Shami in Eng vs Starc in India and Pakistan?? LMAO!

Compare Apple to Apple.

First thing first, Starc is more durable and has longer career than Hazelwood, Johnson and Cummins in Tests. He has 414+ test wickets and a 15 year test career and not done yet. There goes your Asif analogy for a toss.

Starc is better in pink ball test than Hazelwood and Cummins. Just because it is pink ball test, it doesn’t mean we don’t count it. They are official test matches and there is no way we can assume a Johnson or anyone from past would do as good as Starc with pink ball.

In addition to these two points, he has done fairly well home and away both. He had one excellent series in England, multiple dominant series in Sri Lanka and Sri Lanka have produced multiple 40+ averaging batsman in last decade. They are not Windies nor the conditions are Windies like that we don’t value Starc performance there. Johnson was absolutely poor in Asia and England as well. So, he is being rated based on what? Performance in seamer friendly SA and NZ pitches( and there also 2 tests in NZ only)?

Outside of Steyn, Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada who are obviously better as we are not debating whether Starc is ATG but whether he is a top 10 qualifier among players with post 2000 debut, only Anderson and Broad have more wickets than Starc and Starc’s away record is better than both. I am not saying Starc is ATG or something but he is at same level as Broad, Hazelwood and other pacers who all average around 25-27 mark.

I don't think Starc is qualitatively close to Hazlewood to have a case really. Harbhajan has 400+ wickets, he shan't be rated alongside Saqlain. In Pink ball Tests he is better than Haze and Cummins, but not massively so. Great record in SL no doubt, but its still easiest challenge in Asia. Good in England. Flopped so hard everywhere else. And is really not great in Non Red ball home tests. The only case he has over Shami or Wagner is longevity, as unless you put way too much value in his SL record, Shami's overall record is way better. If you rate on that, fair enough.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

The whole trio of pacers should be downgraded in general imo if we're counting that.

Well ...if we must.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Centurion was a great performance ofc. But the overall bowling avg of pacers in matches involving Shami in SA is less than 24, which means Shami is basically par overall on avg.
My point was Starc's only played 1 series in which he did win 1 game for his team (not Josh or Pat even with that ball). So it's a bit unfair on Starc imo, considering Shami's not been great there, he's been fine to good id say

Shami played 2 matches and took 6 wickets @43 in 2013. Zaheer was our best and averaged 45, Steyn 31. Philander ruled. Was a very early series. In 2018, he did 15@17, and in 2021 14@21, including Centurion. Our best by far in 2018 and will put him at top in 2021 too. I think not giving him Nearly not enough credit for SA. It's largely Saffa pacers who pummeled us into oblivion, 21 vs 28. He legit is a Great there imho.

 

[Coronis]

Starc is a great bowler but the matter of fact is that these are his stats in actual Red-ball games

Australia: 29
England: 29
India: 53
New Zealand: 43
Sri Lanka: 16
Pakistan: 34
South Africa: 34
West Indies: 19
UAE: 53

Overall: 29

He has done great in Sri Lanka with the red ball, everywhere else it's either too weak opposition or he's not exceptional frankly speaking, he has been cleaned up at places too. Now with the pinkball he's an ATG but the fact other nations don't play pinkball means any comparison of Starc to others have to be in Redball, Pinkball is also a lot easier to bowl with and a lot harder to bat against, and against inexperienced teams who have never played such high intensity Cricket under the lights like Australia do, it's a bit of an advantage, so the comparison has to be redball and he's just not that guy there.

@Prince EWS a nice return to analysis by checklist

 

[Johan]

Shami is ATG at Home, Starc merely good. 22 in India vs 25 in Australia for a pacer. Also the gap in Shami in Australia and Starc in India/Pakistan/UAE is MASSIVE

won't say Shami is ATG at home due to 76 wickets but sure I can say he is better than Starc at home, especially in Red ball.

 

[capt_Luffy]

won't say Shami is ATG at home due to 76 wickets but sure I can say he is better than Starc at home, especially in Red ball.

5 pacers has more Home wickets, only one 110+. They go 26.5 (Only one significantly more), 26.7, 35, 32. Surely you won't say Bumrah ain't a Home ATG for 62 wickets only?

 

[Prince EWS]

@Prince EWS a nice return to analysis by checklist

Johan has always been an advocate of this. When called out once, he basically said "no it's not analysis by check-list, it's just (explanation of analysis by check-list)" - I think it was Bumrah's NZ thing.

 

[Johan]

I do not remember this.

I will admit I overextended from Pinkball = Bad here though.

 

[Prince EWS]

I do not remember this..

Actually it might have been Wolverine.

 

[ataraxia]

Johan has always been an advocate of this. When called out once, he basically said "no it's not analysis by check-list, it's just (explanation of analysis by check-list)" - I think it was Bumrah's NZ thing.

I think you're thinking of the other one:

Where did I do "analysis by checklist"? And if you don't give a **** about NZ, that's your choice, and your choice can suck my ass.

Fk off.

And where did I say that? If I'm gonna rate a bowler from this era in the tier one, he needs to do something special; and having a near perfect record is one of them. Don't know how that's controversial in any way.

 

[Johan]

Actually it might have been Wolverine.

Oh

 

[Prince EWS]

I was wrong twice, it was Sayon.

 

[Coronis]

I was wrong twice, it was Sayon.

 

[Prince EWS]

Only twice. Nobody's perfect.

 

[Majestic]

I don't think Starc is qualitatively close to Hazlewood to have a case really. Harbhajan has 400+ wickets, he shan't be rated alongside Saqlain. In Pink ball Tests he is better than Haze and Cummins, but not massively so. Great record in SL no doubt, but its still easiest challenge in Asia. Good in England. Flopped so hard everywhere else. And is really not great in Non Red ball home tests. The only case he has over Shami or Wagner is longevity, as unless you put way too much value in his SL record, Shami's overall record is way better. If you rate on that, fair enough.

Starc vs Hazelwood qualitatively hasn’t been the same only in recent years. But at the same time, hazelwood has been way too injured, playing some and missing some games regularly.

In India, a lot depends on the kind of pitches you get. Starc featured in two matches in India last tour when Hazelwood was injured and he was at wrong end of conditions as one pitch was turner and the last one was a flat deck. He averaged 66 there and that dead flat deck messed his numbers. No other Aus pacer played that game. Cummins played his two test on relatively better pitches and ended with average in 30s himself. Hazelwood also played much lesser in Asia compared to Starc and he didn’t do well in Sri Lanka, Pakistanor Bangladesh either. He was actually lucky to miss those games otherwise his numbers would have been hurt. He never played in UAE either.

Red ball and pink ball shouldn’t really make much difference especially when you can see his ability to win test matches consistently at home and he has run through sides consistently every series at home except when opposition is India. There is no guarantee that a Mitchell Johnson would have done as good as Starc if he played pink ball tests and again availability matters also. Also, England, NZ and South Africa home pitches are actually easier than Australia for a fast bowler.

Harbhajan averages worse than Saqlain and has poor away record than Saqlain. That’s why you don’t rate him higher. Starc career numbers aren’t worse and his away record is better than quite a few whom I mentioned already. It is somewhere in middle ground and he did bowled on a fair bit flat decks at home between 2014-2017 on really flat pitches.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Starc vs Hazelwood qualitatively hasn’t been the same only in recent years. But at the same time, hazelwood has been way too injured, playing some and missing some games regularly.

In India, a lot depends on the kind of pitches you get. Starc featured in two matches in India last tour when Hazelwood was injured and he was at wrong end of conditions as one pitch was turner and the last one was a flat deck. He averaged 66 there and that dead flat deck messed his numbers. No other Aus pacer played that game. Cummins played his two test on relatively better pitches and ended with average in 30s himself. Hazelwood also played much lesser in Asia compared to Starc and he didn’t do well in Sri Lanka, Pakistanor Bangladesh either. He was actually lucky to miss those games otherwise his numbers would have been hurt. He never played in UAE either.

Red ball and pink ball shouldn’t really make much difference especially when you can see his ability to win test matches consistently at home and he has run through sides consistently every series at home except when opposition is India. There is no guarantee that a Mitchell Johnson would have done as good as Starc if he played pink ball tests and again availability matters also. Also, England, NZ and South Africa home pitches are actually easier than Australia for a fast bowler.

Harbhajan averages worse than Saqlain and has poor away record than Saqlain. That’s why you don’t rate him higher. Starc career numbers aren’t worse and his away record is better than quite a few whom I mentioned already. It is somewhere in middle ground and he did bowled on a fair bit flat decks at home between 2014-2017 on really flat pitches.

Starc averages ~50 in 12 matches across Ind/Pak/UAE. That's just bad. His record in NZ is poor. England is good, and SL Great, but again importantly, overall not Great at Home. Even including the link ball Tests as 1-0-1 the same, his Home record is just decent. Post 2018 Aussie pitches are tougher than England quite so. His home pitches are responsive enough. I am not buying his away record being better than anyone you mentioned there, neither am I his home record being significantly better. Good longevity for a pacer, you can rate him highly for that. But I think there's just a quality gap in Red ball, and Pink ball even at face value ain't covering all that.

 

[Majestic]

Starc averages ~50 in 12 matches across Ind/Pak/UAE. That's just bad. His record in NZ is poor. England is good, and SL Great, but again importantly, overall not Great at Home. Even including the link ball Tests as 1-0-1 the same, his Home record is just decent. Post 2018 Aussie pitches are tougher than England quite so. His home pitches are responsive enough. I am not buying his away record being better than anyone you mentioned there, neither am I his home record being significantly better. Good longevity for a pacer, you can rate him highly for that. But I think there's just a quality gap in Red ball, and Pink ball even at face value ain't covering all that.

Not always, David Warner has a 300 in pink ball test despite being failed in tough conditions in several major countries. This test match also you look none of England pacers are causing trouble with pink ball. It is not always Christmas with pink ball for pacers. England use Duke ball which swings whole day so then you must value performance of England bowlers at home a lot lesser and that should be the case with Anderson- Broad?

Starc is the best with pink ball and he has won twice more games for Australia with it than any other pacer did.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not always, David Warner has a 300 in pink ball test despite being failed in tough conditions in several major countries. This test match also you look none of England pacers are causing trouble with pink ball. It is not always Christmas with pink ball for pacers. England use Duke ball which swings whole day so then you must value performance of England bowlers at home a lot lesser and that should be the case with Anderson- Broad?

Starc is the best with pink ball and he has won twice more games for Australia with it than any other pacer did.

Pink ball Test is endemic, and all 3 Aussie pacers average between 15-19. It's pretty obvious it's significantly tougher on the long run.
And even if I rate the pink ball games equivalent to red, he still ain't close to *** or Haze at Home, at all (21, 22 vs 25.5). He is overall good at home, not Great. Neither he is so overall away. Again, great longevity and all, rate highly for that if you will. I don't think it's enough.