Best Bowlers to Debut post 2000

[capt_Luffy]

Let’s look at away record of fast bowlers since 2000. Starc away record is better than below names:-

Hazelwood
Rabada
Boult
Shami
Broad
Anderson
Johnson

In addition to this, Starc is among the few genuine fast bowlers who have longevity of 100+ tests and still going strong. None of Johnson, Hazelwood, Cummins are as durable as him. All this despite playing more ODI games and ODI wickets than each of them. Not rating him high is a punishable offence.

View attachment 50799

I disagree. Starc's away record ain't better than:

Rabada
Hazlewood
Shami
Broad
Anderson
Johnson
Boult


Looking at overall raw away average is not a valid way to look at things. There are plenty of things to offshoot this, especially WI. I gave you Starc's no.s away against every decent team. Great in SL, Good in England, mid to poor everywhere else. I don't rate his wickets in SL super highly. It's definitely not the same as performing in Australia or England or India or Pakistan or even South Africa. It's particularly strange and meaningless when 4 of them aren't even 1 run off in average, and none more than 2. Surely you think Asif was better than Steyn away!? Rating pink ball Starc this high is as dumb as comparing Kallis with Bevan in ODIs.

Let's do a simple comparison with Shami.

Shami in Australia > Starc in England
Shami in England > Starc in India/Pakistan/UAE
Shami in South Africa ~ Starc in Sri Lanka
Shami in Home > Starc in Home


Why exactly is Starc better? Doing good in SL??

 

[Johan]

Starc is a great bowler but the matter of fact is that these are his stats in actual Red-ball games

Australia: 29
England: 29
India: 53
New Zealand: 43
Sri Lanka: 16
Pakistan: 34
South Africa: 34
West Indies: 19
UAE: 53

Overall: 29

He has done great in Sri Lanka with the red ball, everywhere else it's either too weak opposition or he's not exceptional frankly speaking, he has been cleaned up at places too. Now with the pinkball he's an ATG but the fact other nations don't play pinkball means any comparison of Starc to others have to be in Redball, Pinkball is also a lot easier to bowl with and a lot harder to bat against, and against inexperienced teams who have never played such high intensity Cricket under the lights like Australia do, it's a bit of an advantage, so the comparison has to be redball and he's just not that guy there.

 

[Thala_0710]

I'd take Starc over Shami now, not sure about Wagner though

 

[Majestic]

I disagree. Starc's away record ain't better than:

Rabada
Hazlewood
Shami
Broad
Anderson
Johnson
Boult


Looking at overall raw away average is not a valid way to look at things. There are plenty of things to offshoot this, especially WI. I gave you Starc's no.s away against every decent team. Great in SL, Good in England, mid to poor everywhere else. I don't rate his wickets in SL super highly. It's definitely not the same as performing in Australia or England or India or Pakistan or even South Africa. It's particularly strange and meaningless when 4 of them aren't even 1 run off in average, and none more than 2. Surely you think Asif was better than Steyn away!? Rating pink ball Starc this high is as dumb as comparing Kallis with Bevan in ODIs.

Let's do a simple comparison with Shami.

Shami in Australia > Starc in England
Shami in England > Starc in India/Pakistan/UAE
Shami in South Africa ~ Starc in Sri Lanka
Shami in Home > Starc in Home


Why exactly is Starc better? Doing good in SL??

That’s a dumb comparison you just did.

shami in Aus va Starc in Eng??
Shami in Eng vs Starc in India and Pakistan?? LMAO!

Compare Apple to Apple.

First thing first, Starc is more durable and has longer career than Hazelwood, Johnson and Cummins in Tests. He has 414+ test wickets and a 15 year test career and not done yet. There goes your Asif analogy for a toss.

Starc is better in pink ball test than Hazelwood and Cummins. Just because it is pink ball test, it doesn’t mean we don’t count it. They are official test matches and there is no way we can assume a Johnson or anyone from past would do as good as Starc with pink ball.

In addition to these two points, he has done fairly well home and away both. He had one excellent series in England, multiple dominant series in Sri Lanka and Sri Lanka have produced multiple 40+ averaging batsman in last decade. They are not Windies nor the conditions are Windies like that we don’t value Starc performance there. Johnson was absolutely poor in Asia and England as well. So, he is being rated based on what? Performance in seamer friendly SA and NZ pitches( and there also 2 tests in NZ only)?

Outside of Steyn, Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada who are obviously better as we are not debating whether Starc is ATG but whether he is a top 10 qualifier among players with post 2000 debut, only Anderson and Broad have more wickets than Starc and Starc’s away record is better than both. I am not saying Starc is ATG or something but he is at same level as Broad, Hazelwood and other pacers who all average around 25-27 mark.

 

[Majestic]

Starc is a great bowler but the matter of fact is that these are his stats in actual Red-ball games

Australia: 29
England: 29
India: 53
New Zealand: 43
Sri Lanka: 16
Pakistan: 34
South Africa: 34
West Indies: 19
UAE: 53

Overall: 29

He has done great in Sri Lanka with the red ball, everywhere else it's either too weak opposition or he's not exceptional frankly speaking, he has been cleaned up at places too. Now with the pinkball he's an ATG but the fact other nations don't play pinkball means any comparison of Starc to others have to be in Redball, Pinkball is also a lot easier to bowl with and a lot harder to bat against, and against inexperienced teams who have never played such high intensity Cricket under the lights like Australia do, it's a bit of an advantage, so the comparison has to be redball and he's just not that guy there.

I was actually debating whether he is too 10 among players post 2000 debut. You can trace my post from where discussion started.

Starc deserves credit for being better in pink ball tests than Hazelwood and Cummins. Just because it is pink ball test, it doesn’t mean we don’t count it. They are official test matches and there is no way we can assume a Johnson or anyone from past would do as good as Starc with pink ball. That ability to run through sides consistently in pink ball game deserves its own place.

 

[Johan]

I was actually debating whether he is too 10 among players post 2000 debut. You can trace my post from where discussion started.

Starc deserves credit for being better in pink ball tests than Hazelwood and Cummins. Just because it is pink ball test, it doesn’t mean we don’t count it. They are official test matches and there is no way we can assume a Johnson or anyone from past would do as good as Starc with pink ball. That ability to run through sides consistently in pink ball game deserves its own place.

Ok, sure, but it's objectively a big boost. For example.

In Pinkball Tests

Starc: 16.72
Cummins: 17.32
Hazlewood: 18.50
Lyon: 25.62

In Redball Tests (in Australia)

Cummins: 20.62
Hazlewood: 23.82
Starc: 29.17
Lyon: 32.16

It's just harder to play the pinkball, especially much harder under the lights.

 

[Thala_0710]

That’s a dumb comparison you just did.

shami in Aus va Starc in Eng??
Shami in Eng vs Starc in India and Pakistan?? LMAO!

Compare Apple to Apple.

First thing first, Starc is more durable and has longer career than Hazelwood, Johnson and Cummins in Tests. He has 414+ test wickets and a 15 year test career and not done yet. There goes your Asif analogy for a toss.

Starc is better in pink ball test than Hazelwood and Cummins. Just because it is pink ball test, it doesn’t mean we don’t count it. They are official test matches and there is no way we can assume a Johnson or anyone from past would do as good as Starc with pink ball.

In addition to these two points, he has done fairly well home and away both. He had one excellent series in England, multiple dominant series in Sri Lanka and Sri Lanka have produced multiple 40+ averaging batsman in last decade. They are not Windies nor the conditions are Windies like that we don’t value Starc performance there. Johnson was absolutely poor in Asia and England as well. So, he is being rated based on what? Performance in seamer friendly SA and NZ pitches( and there also 2 tests in NZ only)?

Outside of Steyn, Cummins, Bumrah and Rabada who are obviously better as we are not debating whether Starc is ATG but whether he is a top 10 qualifier among players with post 2000 debut, only Anderson and Broad have more wickets than Starc and Starc’s away record is better than both. I am not saying Starc is ATG or something but he is at same level as Broad, Hazelwood and other pacers who all average around 25-27 mark.

I don't think he's at the Hazlewood level who himself has upped his game as of late. So I don't think I'd have him there, but I think he's debatable with Broad and Wagner now though. Also, agree with the pink ball point. It surely has to count. Any test match cricket being played against quality opposition counts. It's makes our job to compare players more difficult, but I don't think you can discount pink ball tests altogether.

 

[Thala_0710]

Ok, sure, but it's objectively a big boost. For example.

In Pinkball Tests

Starc: 16.72
Cummins: 17.32
Hazlewood: 18.50
Lyon: 25.62

In Redball Tests (in Australia)

Cummins: 20.62
Hazlewood: 23.82
Starc: 29.17
Lyon: 32.16

It's just harder to play the pinkball, especially much harder under the lights.

Yeah which means that we don't give it same weight as red ball tests, but surely Starc being clearly the best at it has to be a boost to legacy and rating here

 

[Johan]

I don't think he's at the Hazlewood level who himself has upped his game as of late. So I don't think I'd have him there, but I think he's debatable with Broad and Wagner now though. Also, agree with the pink ball point. It surely has to count. Any test match cricket being played against quality opposition counts. It's makes our job to compare players more difficult, but I don't think you can discount pink ball tests altogether.

I don't think Haze is THAT much better than Broad.

 

[Thala_0710]

I don't think Haze is THAT much better than Broad.

I don't think he's a tier above but I'd say he's clearly better after what he's done over the last couple of years now

 

[Johan]

I don't think he's a tier above but I'd say he's clearly better after what he's done over the last couple of years now

I mean sure he's clearly a better quality bowler but he misses far too many games, he'd miss 3 games here, he missed 4 games in BGT, he missed one game in 2023 Ashes, he missed 4 games in 2021 Ashes, he missed 2 games when Saffers toured Aus, he missed 2 games in Pakistan too, he also missed 2023 BGT entirely. Too much of a glass cannon.

 

[Majestic]

I don't think he's at the Hazlewood level who himself has upped his game as of late. So I don't think I'd have him there, but I think he's debatable with Broad and Wagner now though. Also, agree with the pink ball point. It surely has to count. Any test match cricket being played against quality opposition counts. It's makes our job to compare players more difficult, but I don't think you can discount pink ball tests altogether.

I agree quality wise Hazelwood is better. But he lacks the durability which somehow Starc has. I mean it is such a worse time to get injured when you are bowling so well and Cummins is already injured at the same time. Being fit in crucial series really matters for me.

 

[Thala_0710]

I mean sure he's clearly a better quality bowler but he misses far too many games, he'd miss 3 games here, he missed 4 games in BGT, he missed one game in 2023 Ashes, he missed 4 games in 2021 Ashes, he missed 2 games when Saffers toured Aus, he missed 2 games in Pakistan too, he also missed 2023 BGT entirely. Too much of a glass cannon.

Yup that's true. I think though if he was as fit as Starc, I'd be rating Hazlewood a tier higher, alongside Bedser/Adcock.

 

[Johan]

on Shami vs Starc...

• Shami in Australia is better than Starc in India.
• Starc in England is better than Shami in England.
• Shami in South Africa is much better than Starc in South Africa.
• Shami in New Zealand is better than Starc in New Zealand.
• Starc in Sri Lanka is better than Shami in Sri Lanka
• Both are good/great at home.

Starc has an overall better career average, Shami had a better redball average. Overall, on quality, I feel Shami is equal or slightly better as a Test pacer.

 

[Johan]

Yup that's true. I think though if he was as fit as Starc, I'd be rating Hazlewood a tier higher, alongside Bedser/Adcock.

Truth be told I don't think Haze is better than Broad unless he starts playing atleast 60-70% of the major games.

 

[Thala_0710]

on Shami vs Starc...

• Shami in Australia is better than Starc in India.
• Starc in England is better than Shami in England.
• Shami in South Africa is much better than Starc in South Africa.
• Shami in New Zealand is better than Starc in New Zealand.
• Starc in Sri Lanka is better than Shami in Sri Lanka
• Both are good/great at home.

Starc has an overall better career average, Shami had a better redball average. Overall, on quality, I feel Shami is equal or slightly better as a Test pacer.

I don't think Shami is much better in SA. Starc has played only one series there in which he won Aus the first game. Shami has gotten absolute horrendous pitches (for batting) which helps his avg. NZ is basically 2 vs 3 games where both have been quite poor. Starc has also got almost double the wickets of Shami going back again to your point of fitness. Shami has again missed a lot of tests due to fitness. I think Starc has to be rated above Shami now

 

[Johan]

I don't think Shami is much better in SA. Starc has played only one series there in which he won Aus the first game. Shami has gotten absolute horrendous pitches (for batting) which helps his avg. NZ is basically 2 vs 3 games where both have been quite poor. Starc has also got almost double the wickets of Shami going back again to your point of fitness. Shami has again missed a lot of tests due to fitness. I think Starc has to be rated above Shami now

well no offense but I think we all know how Starc won that game.

 

[Thala_0710]

well no offense but I think we all know how Starc won that game.

Well yeah I mean but if we're counting that, do we really think that's the only time they used sandpaper? I'm guessing not. The whole trio of pacers should be downgraded in general imo if we're counting that.

 

[Johan]

Well yeah I mean but if we're counting that, do we really think that's the only time they used sandpaper? I'm guessing not. The whole trio of pacers should be downgraded in general imo if we're counting that.

I've had doubts regarding the 2017/18 Ashes

 

[Thala_0710]

Well yeah I mean but if we're counting that, do we really think that's the only time they used sandpaper? I'm guessing not. The whole trio of pacers should be downgraded in general imo if we're counting that.

If anything we should be downgrading Hazlewood and Cummins more tbh, because they still took **** all wickets even after roughening up the ball