Are ARs just better by default?

[DrWolverine]

But the reason we highlight Sobers, Imran, Hadlee, Kallis and Miller is that they are all world class in a primary discipline to compete with specialists and the secondary skills as an add on over take the specialists.

Sobers is a Top 5 bat.
Kallis is a Top 15-20 bat.
Hadlee is arguably the best or Top 3 bowler.
Imran Top 6-10 bowler.
So they are special cases.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Assuming Batting = bowling, the big five (Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Kallis, Miller) all rounders would exceed any specialist.

No Grace? Smh. And I would take Marshall ahead of the latter two, can bat some as well. Surely we aren't forgetting any specialist here........

 

[Bolo.]

The clear answer here is most teams don't have one World Class AR let alone 2 or 3. If even say, two very good but some way from ATG ARs, like Chris Cairns and Andrew Flintoff played for the same team, they mostly would play together. You aren't benching Shaun Pollock because Jacques Kallis is playing, right? But you don't want need Beau Webster now if Cam Green is playing, just not worth it.

Ya, real teams not picking many ARs is not a reason to say they shouldnt be picked in an ATG team if the reason for the real teams not picking them is not having them.

And you do find examples of teams playing multiples. RSA 1970 and late 90s were 2 of the strongest teams they have ever fielded, playing heaps of ARs.

 

[shortpitched713]

Assuming Batting = bowling, the big five (Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Kallis, Miller) all rounders would exceed any specialist.

Give me your best non Bradman all time XIs, both with and without Miller.

I think the case can be made that by selecting him you have to make a meaningful choice between bowling and batting (unlike the other listed all-rounders). Not saying he's a bad pick, just one who could be debated against on that ground.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Give me your best non Bradman all time XIs, both with and without Miller.

I think the case can be made that by selecting him you have to make a meaningful choice between bowling and batting (unlike the other listed all-rounders). Not saying he's a bad pick, just one who could be debated against on that ground.

For an ATG team, maybe. But for an average/mid/minnow team? He would be extremely important, think that's a better measure.

 

[shortpitched713]

My single match All-Time XI (no Bradman, retired players only) ends up having 4 of those all-rounders.

Gavaskar
Hayden
Lara
V. Richards
Sobers
Kallis
Sangakkara
Imran
Hadlee
Muralitharan
McGrath

Could go with Gilchrist as a "safer" choice for WK-batsman, but my scenario is against an alien all-time XI single match, death beam pointed at the planet you have to win. So give me Sangakkara!

I think this team really stacks as much Specialist level, and secondary skills as humanly possible, on both bowling and batting ends.

Bat down to 9, plus the below bowling lineup:

1) McGrath
2) Hadlee
3) Imran
4) Muralitharan
5) Kallis
6) Sobers (really appreciate having a version of him whose shoulder can handle bowling his unorthodox wrist spin, so could have 2 quality Test class spinners if it's a turning track too)

 

[capt_Luffy]

My single match All-Time XI (no Bradman, retired players only) ends up having 4 of those all-rounders.

Gavaskar
Hayden
Lara
V. Richards
Sobers
Kallis
Sangakkara
Imran
Hadlee
Muralitharan
McGrath

Could go with Gilchrist as a "safer" choice for WK-batsman, but my scenario is against an alien all-time XI single match, death beam pointed at the planet you have to win. So give me Sangakkara!

I think this team really stacks as much Specialist level, and secondary skills as humanly possible, on both bowling and batting ends.

Bat down to 9, plus the below bowling lineup:

1) McGrath
2) Hadlee
3) Imran
4) Muralitharan
5) Kallis
6) Sobers (really appreciate having a version of him whose shoulder can handle bowling his unorthodox wrist spin, so could have 2 quality Test class spinners if it's a turning track too)

Well, I have 4 ARs (Sobers, Grace, Imran, Hadlee) in my normal AT XI as well

 

[Randomfan]

The clear answer here is most teams don't have one World Class AR let alone 2 or 3. If even say, two very good but some way from ATG ARs, like Chris Cairns and Andrew Flintoff played for the same team, they mostly would play together. You aren't benching Shaun Pollock because Jacques Kallis is playing, right? But you don't want need Beau Webster now if Cam Green is playing, just not worth it.

Agree with that. We don't have great all rounders in teams in any era and that's why we don't see many playing together.

My question was about not those teams. My question was about all times XIs where we have IK, Miller, Kallis who are supposed to add more value than specialists.

 

[Randomfan]

Depending on what team you are facing, an ATG XI can pick more specialists or ARs.

When we make all time XIs, we are trying to make the best possible team which can dominate all surface and take 20 wickets cheaply and quickly to win the game. We are just trying to make the best posisble team. Most all time XIs have that goal.

I am not disputing that specialist or ARs both can be selected. In fact, I have done in past myself. I am questioning that why we don't see ARs in most all time XIs. I would guess that most don't see all roundners adding more value than specialist in those teams. If most think that all rounders are adding more value by default then there is no reason to stop after Sobers.

 

[subshakerz]

When we make all time XIs, we are trying to make the best possible team which can dominate all surface and take 20 wickets cheaply and quickly to win the game. We are just trying to make the best posisble team. Most all time XIs we see have that goal.

I am not disputing that specialist or ARs both can be selected. In fact, I have done in past myself. I am questioning that why we don't see ARs in most all time XIs. I would guess that most don't see all roundners adding more value than specialist in those teams. If most think that all rounders are adding more value by default then there is no reason to stop after Sobers.

Which ATG XIs are you talking about though? It only seems a debate on one or two needed.

In the Cricinfo one, they only allowed one. Hence Imran got put In the next team after Sobers. Some people just follow that rule.

In others, they don’t. I can name plenty that have two.

Almost nobody is going to pick three ARs in their ATG XI. Because as we said, it feels too indulgent and you don’t get the full impact of their secondary skills.

 

[Randomfan]

Which ATG XIs are you talking about though? It only seems a debate on one or two needed.

In the Cricinfo one, they only allowed one. Hence Imran got put In the next team after Sobers. Some people just follow that rule.

In others, they don’t. I can name plenty that have two.

Almost nobody is going to pick three ARs in their ATG XI. Because as we said, it feels too indulgent and you don’t get the full impact of their secondary skills.

There are laundary list of ATG's by various ex-cricketers, fans and experts. I have not done a job of compiling all fo them but we don't see 2 all rounders playing in all of them. Some may have 2 but I don't recall majority having 2 all rounders. I am not talking about having 3. One more after Sobers is a very low bar if all rounders are really adding more value by default compared to specialists.

 

[Randomfan]

A hypothetical ATG team has the luxury of picking specialists.

Yes, Hypothetical ATG world XI has a luxury to pick specialists or all rounders. They have all players available.

Great Aus, WI or some other teams may not have luxury to pick everyone. That's why I don't think we should take WI/Aus not having all rounders as evidence for anything. Same way, some teams have played more than one all rounders. They all are simply picking what options are availble to them. That does not prove or disaprove anyting.

But all time XI have all options availble to them. All rounders not making it there indicates that most don't think that all 4-5 allrounders are adding more value by default in those teams compared to specialists.

 

[Johan]

But all time XI have all options availble to them. All rounders not making it there indicates that most don't think that all 4-5 allrounders are adding more value by default in those teams compared to specialists.

They add more value in the real world, not in fantasy XIs. Nobody claimed Kallis's bowling would add more value than Lara's batting advantage if you have the bowling attack of Barnes/Marshall/Warne/Hadlee/Sobers, but sadly such attacks don't exist and thus Kallis's bowling has value in the real world.

 

[Randomfan]

Ya, real teams not picking many ARs is not a reason to say they shouldnt be picked in an ATG team if the reason for the real teams not picking them is not having them.

And you do find examples of teams playing multiples. RSA 1970 and late 90s were 2 of the strongest teams they have ever fielded, playing heaps of ARs.

Agree with that. I don't think great Aus or WI team not having them shows anything. If teams had choice and not picked then it shows something.

Now, when picking all time XIs, eveyrone has all options available. In this scenario, not picking more than one all rounders indicates how majority thinks about specialist vs all rounders value addition when constructing all time XIs.

 

[Randomfan]

They add more value in the real world, not in fantasy XIs.

Ok

 

[Johan]

Ok

Glad we agree.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

ATG allrounders secondary skill ranked

Sobers bowling
Procter - Miller - Botham Batting
Kapil Batting
Kallis bowling
Imran Batting
Hadlee - Pollock Batting

 

[Randomfan]

Glad we agree.

I am not sure what you think we agree on, but I will clarify.

Only time great 4-5 all rounders are competing for a spot with specialists in teams are those fantasy XIs. In any other cases, great all rounders are not competing with elite specialists.

When all rounders are playing for their teams, most of them do provide lots of value and often they can provide more than most specialists. But comaprison is rarely on equal footings. For example, IK/Hadlee were gun all rounders but they were simply better than anyone in their teams in primary. They did not have to be all rounders to add more value in their teams. On other hands, Bumrah adds more value than Jadeja because Bumrah is another level to Jadeja. It becomes hard to compare in those sitautions. It is much easier to compare in all time XIs.

In past, I have myself put Sobers, IK and Kallis in one team. Not sure i will do that any time in future.

 

[Randomfan]

ATG allrounders secondary skill ranked

Sobers bowling
Procter - Miller - Botham Batting
Kapil Batting
Kallis bowling
Imran Batting
Hadlee - Pollock Batting

Yah, not much wrong here.

 

[Johan]

Imran bats better than Kapil and it's a more valuable discipline than Kallis's bowling.