The Best Team from the Group Stage

[Athlai]

The argument is who's been the best in the WC so far, not who is overall the more complete bowler though.

And I mean in this WC too. My argument has entirely been that Boult has definitely been better in the first 10 overs and Southee better in the last 40. For them that pretty much means that Boult's first 5 overs have been better than Southee's 4 and a bit overs. And Southee's latter 5 and a bit overs have been better than Boults. I think Southee has bowled some of the better 2nd and 3rd spells of any bowler in the tournament and has certainly had the stand out bowling performance so far.

I thought he was much better in the proper death vs. Bangladesh than any of our other bowlers (not that we've had much of a glimpse of that) and even when he has had the odd game where he bowled below his standard in his first spell, he comes on from the same end Boult just finished and brings up his own game.
Boult has been more consistent up front for sure. But Southee has shown the capacity to come back and the experience to actually bowl well under pressure situations. If we were arguing over who is the best "strike" bowler in the tournament I'd very readily concede that Boult has been far better than Southee. But ODIs aren't all about strike bowling, sometimes they're about containing and support.

During this post I also actually did the stats for it and broke it all down. Unfortunately for myself, the numbers tell a different story.

But I'm enough of a bro to show you all the breakdown.

Southee vs Boult

vs. Sri Lanka

Southee
1st Spell 5-1-15-0 @ 3.00
Death 5-0-28-2 @ 5.66


Boult
1st Spell 4-0-27-0 @ 6.75
2nd Spell 6-0-37-2 @ 6.17

vs. Scotland

Southee
1st spell 5-3-11-2 @ 2.2
2nd spell 3-0-24-0 @ 8.00

Boult
1st spell 6-1-21-2 @ 3.5

vs. England

Southee
1st spell 5-0-23-2 @ 4.6
2nd spell 4-0-11-5 @ 2.75

Boult
1st spell 8-1-30-1 @ 3.75
2nd spell 2-1-2-0 @ 1.00


vs. Australia

Southee
1st spell 3-0-32-1 @ 10.67
2nd spell 3-0-18-1 @ 6.00
3rd spell 3-0-15-0 @ 5.00

Boult
1st spell 5-0-24-0 @ 4.80
2nd spell 5-3-3-5 @ 0.60


vs. Afghanistan

Southee
1st spell 5-0-19-0 @ 3.80
2nd spell 2-0-14-0 @7.00 (1 drop)
3rd spell 3-0-10-0 @ 3.33

Boult
1st spell 6-1-20-2 @ 3.33
Death 3-1-10-1 @ 3.33


vs. Bangladesh

Southee
1st Spell 6-0-25-0 @ 4.17 (1 drop)
2nd Spell 2-1-6-0 @ 3.00
Death 2-0-20-0 @ 20.00

Boult
1st Spell 7-3-36-2 @ 5.14
2nd Spell 2-0-12-0 @ 6.00
Death 1-0-8-0 @ 8.00



All up

Southee
1st spell 29-4-125-5 @ 4.31 (Avg. 25, SR 34.80)
2nd spell 14-1-73-6 @ 5.21 (Avg. 12.17, SR 12)
3rd spell 6-0-25-0 @ 4.17 (Avg. -, SR -)
Death 7-0-48-2 @ 6.86 (Avg. 24, SR 21)

Boult
1st spell 36-6-158-7 @ 4.39 (Avg. 22.57, SR 30.86)
2nd spell 15-4-54-7 @ 3.60 (Avg. 7.71, SR 12.86)
Death 4-1-18-1 @ 4.50 (Avg. 18, SR 24)

I'll still maintain that I find value in Southee being trusted to bowl more overs at the end of the innings and cite Boult's relative inexperience at containing at the end of the innings. Buuuuuut it's hardly like Boult has been smashed either so anyone waving that flag can wave it quite proudly.

I'd still be picking Southee because in my heart of hearts I think he has been a little better throughout. Boult definitely has a tendency to bowl an unbelievable spell though. Just look at that one against Australia.

 

[Flem274*]

im not reading that affers. put pictures or something in there. i'll give you a like because i probably agree.

i didn't see most of southee's bowling against bangas daemontools so i'll take you at your word.

 

[Flem274*]

haha those second spell figures holy ****.

backs up what we've been saying about the second spell being where we've won the majority of odis

 

[Athlai]

Pictures added FTR.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Boult's picture is bigger and he looks happier so I'm going to assume he's the better bowler.

 

[Zinzan]

And I mean in this WC too. My argument has entirely been that Boult has definitely been better in the first 10 overs and Southee better in the last 40. For them that pretty much means that Boult's first 5 overs have been better than Southee's 4 and a bit overs. And Southee's latter 5 and a bit overs have been better than Boults. I think Southee has bowled some of the better 2nd and 3rd spells of any bowler in the tournament and has certainly had the stand out bowling performance so far.

I thought he was much better in the proper death vs. Bangladesh than any of our other bowlers (not that we've had much of a glimpse of that) and even when he has had the odd game where he bowled below his standard in his first spell, he comes on from the same end Boult just finished and brings up his own game.
Boult has been more consistent up front for sure. But Southee has shown the capacity to come back and the experience to actually bowl well under pressure situations. If we were arguing over who is the best "strike" bowler in the tournament I'd very readily concede that Boult has been far better than Southee. But ODIs aren't all about strike bowling, sometimes they're about containing and support.

During this post I also actually did the stats for it and broke it all down. Unfortunately for myself, the numbers tell a different story.


But I'm enough of a bro to show you all the breakdown.

Southee vs Boult

vs. Sri Lanka

Southee
1st Spell 5-1-15-0 @ 3.00
Death 5-0-28-2 @ 5.66


Boult
1st Spell 4-0-27-0 @ 6.75
2nd Spell 6-0-37-2 @ 6.17

vs. Scotland

Southee
1st spell 5-3-11-2 @ 2.2
2nd spell 3-0-24-0 @ 8.00

Boult
1st spell 6-1-21-2 @ 3.5

vs. England

Southee
1st spell 5-0-23-2 @ 4.6
2nd spell 4-0-11-5 @ 2.75

Boult
1st spell 8-1-30-1 @ 3.75
2nd spell 2-1-2-0 @ 1.00


vs. Australia

Southee
1st spell 3-0-32-1 @ 10.67
2nd spell 3-0-18-1 @ 6.00
3rd spell 3-0-15-0 @ 5.00

Boult
1st spell 5-0-24-0 @ 4.80
2nd spell 5-3-3-5 @ 0.60


vs. Afghanistan

Southee
1st spell 5-0-19-0 @ 3.80
2nd spell 2-0-14-0 @7.00 (1 drop)
3rd spell 3-0-10-0 @ 3.33

Boult
1st spell 6-1-20-2 @ 3.33
Death 3-1-10-1 @ 3.33


vs. Bangladesh

Southee
1st Spell 6-0-25-0 @ 4.17 (1 drop)
2nd Spell 2-1-6-0 @ 3.00
Death 2-0-20-0 @ 20.00

Boult
1st Spell 7-3-36-2 @ 5.14
2nd Spell 2-0-12-0 @ 6.00
Death 1-0-8-0 @ 8.00



All up

Southee
1st spell 29-4-125-5 @ 4.31 (Avg. 25, SR 34.80)
2nd spell 14-1-73-6 @ 5.21 (Avg. 12.17, SR 12)
3rd spell 6-0-25-0 @ 4.17 (Avg. -, SR -)
Death 7-0-48-2 @ 6.86 (Avg. 24, SR 21)

Boult
1st spell 36-6-158-7 @ 4.39 (Avg. 22.57, SR 30.86)
2nd spell 15-4-54-7 @ 3.60 (Avg. 7.71, SR 12.86)
Death 4-1-18-1 @ 4.50 (Avg. 18, SR 24)



I'll still maintain that I find value in Southee being trusted to bowl more overs at the end of the innings and cite Boult's relative inexperience at containing at the end of the innings. Buuuuuut it's hardly like Boult has been smashed either so anyone waving that flag can wave it quite proudly.

I'd still be picking Southee because in my heart of hearts I think he has been a little better throughout. Boult definitely has a tendency to bowl an unbelievable spell though. Just look at that one against Australia.

Really top post until I read the part in bold.

You'd quite rightly proven yourself wrong with your own analysis & was man enough to share it nonetheless, so why then shoot yourself in the foot & spoil it with that irrational 'heart of hearts' stuff at the end?

 

[Dan]

...or he rates bowlers based on things that aren't spreadsheets?

 

[Athlai]

...or he rates bowlers based on things that aren't spreadsheets?

I hear the jury is out on science.

 

[Zinzan]

...or he rates bowlers based on things that aren't spreadsheets?

Then he should make a better argument than 'but in my heart of hearts..." if that's the case.

 

[Athlai]

The other 2.



Starc

vs. England

1st Spell 3-1-10-1 @ 3.33
2nd Spell 2-0-11-0 @ 5.50
3rd spell 4-0-26-1 @ 6.50


vs. NZ

1st spell 3-0-20-1 @ 6.67
2nd spell 3-0-4-2 @ 1.33
3rd spell 3-0-4-3 @ 1.33

vs. Afghanistan

1st spell 3-0-14-0
2nd Spell 3-0-4-2 @ 1.33

vs. SL

1st spell 5-0-16-0 @ 3.20
2nd spell 2-0-7-0 @ 3.50
Death 1.2-0-6-2 @ 4.51

vs. Scotland

1st spell 4-1-14-2 @ 3.5
2nd spell 0.4-1-0-2 @ 0.00

1st spell 18-2-74-4 @ 4.11 (Avg. 18.50, SR 27)
2nd spell 9.4-1-26-6 @ 2.23 (Avg. 4.33, SR 9.67)
3rd spell 7-0-30-4 @ 4.29 (Avg. 7.50, SR 10.50)
DEATH 1.2-0-6-2 @ 4.51 (Avg. 3.00, SR 4)


Shami

vs. Pakistan

1st spell 5-0-17-1 @ 3.40
2nd spell 3-0-19-2 @ 6.33
Death 0w 1-1-0-1 @ 0.00

vs. SA

1st spell 5-1-15-1 @ 3.00
2nd spell 3-0-15-1 @ 5.00

vs. WI

1st spell 6-2-19-2 @ 3.17 (1 drop)
2nd spell 2-0-16-0 @ 8.00



vs. Ireland

1st Spell 4-0-23-0 @ 5.75
Death 5-0-18-3 @ 3.60

vs. Zimbabwe

1st spell 5-2-8-1 @ 1.60
2nd spell 2-0-22-0 @ 11.00
Death 2-0-19-2 @ 9.50


1st spell 25-5-82-5 @ 3.28 (Avg. 16.40, SR 30)
2nd spell 8-0-56-3 @ 7.00 (Avg. 18.67, SR 16)
Death 8-1-37-6 @ 4.63 (Avg. 6.17, SR 8)

A lot of Shami's wickets have a distinct taste of jam. I think the most striking thing about look at his performances was that unlike Starc, Southee and Boult. He wasn't brought on to find a wicket in the 20-30 over period pretty much at all. Would definitely still have him below the other 3 IMO.

 

[Athlai]

Then he should make a better argument than 'but in my heart of hearts..." if that's the case.

Uh, the argument preceded the statistical breakdown and after it. I think Southee offers more when the ball isn't swinging. I maintain he has bowled better later in the innings, bowls better lines, better bouncers, better slower balls. This has been my argument throughout this thread. Heart of hearts is to describe that this isn't something backed up by the current numbers of the WC. That said I think we all understand that quite a few of these second spells are during a 'new ball' period since the use of two balls has effectively doubled this window.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, I think you'll find even the most passionate of Indian fans such would concede Shami's behind Starc, Boult & Southee as Jono has above.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah, I think you'll find even the most passionate of Indian fans such would concede Shami's behind Starc, Boult & Southee as Jono has above.

Except for a couple on the first page.

 

[Zinzan]

Uh, the argument preceded the statistical breakdown and after it. I think Southee offers more when the ball isn't swinging. I maintain he has bowled better later in the innings, bowls better lines, better bouncers, better slower balls. This has been my argument throughout this thread. Heart of hearts is to describe that this isn't something backed up by the current numbers of the WC. That said I think we all understand that quite a few of these second spells are during a 'new ball' period since the use of two balls has effectively doubled this window.

Yeah, I was replying to that last post in isolation, because it was a quality analysis only to take an unlikely u-turn at the end.

I do think when both the stats & most other pundits agree Boult has been better, it could possibly come down to a subconscious preconceived preference toward Southee, but I could be wrong.

 

[Zinzan]

Except for a couple on the first page.

I should have said 'fair-minded' Indian fans like Jono then

 

[Jimbo the giant]

Yeah, I think you'll find even the most passionate of Indian fans such would concede Shami's behind Starc, Boult & Southee as Jono has above.

Only the most delusional Southee fans would put him above Boult.

Southee has had 1 amazing game, 2 good games and 3 below par games. Shami has been better than good for 5 straight games. Statistics back it up as well, he has been the more consistent bowler. The eyes sometimes will only see what they want to see. If you can't honestly say Shami has been in the same league as Southee you probably aren't 'fair minded'

 

[Zinzan]

Only the most delusional Southee fans would put him above Boult.

Southee has had 1 amazing game, 2 good games and 3 below par games. Shami has been better than good for 5 straight games. Statistics back it up as well, he has been the more consistent bowler. The eyes sometimes will only see what they want to see. If you can't honestly say Shami has been in the same league as Southee you probably aren't 'fair minded'

Southee vs Boult or Southee vs Shami? If it's the latter battle, I don't think Southee is miles ahead of Shami, just like Boult isn't miles ahead of Southee...but both are clear enough for me.

 

[Jimbo the giant]

Southee vs Boult or Southee vs Shami? If it's the latter battle, I don't think Southee is miles ahead of Shami, just like Boult isn't miles ahead of Southee...but both are clear enough for me.

The Boult was for Athlai who can't go past his fanboyism

The Shami part was for you. You said that a fair minded person couldn't argue for Shami over Southee. Southee is getting a bit too much love I reckon, he hasn't been consistent enough. 1 game can't put you in a tournament team. Shami has been excellent throughout.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah I'm not a Southee > boult fan.

 

[honestbharani]

The other 2.



Starc

vs. England

1st Spell 3-1-10-1 @ 3.33
2nd Spell 2-0-11-0 @ 5.50
3rd spell 4-0-26-1 @ 6.50


vs. NZ

1st spell 3-0-20-1 @ 6.67
2nd spell 3-0-4-2 @ 1.33
3rd spell 3-0-4-3 @ 1.33

vs. Afghanistan

1st spell 3-0-14-0
2nd Spell 3-0-4-2 @ 1.33

vs. SL

1st spell 5-0-16-0 @ 3.20
2nd spell 2-0-7-0 @ 3.50
Death 1.2-0-6-2 @ 4.51

vs. Scotland

1st spell 4-1-14-2 @ 3.5
2nd spell 0.4-1-0-2 @ 0.00

1st spell 18-2-74-4 @ 4.11 (Avg. 18.50, SR 27)
2nd spell 9.4-1-26-6 @ 2.23 (Avg. 4.33, SR 9.67)
3rd spell 7-0-30-4 @ 4.29 (Avg. 7.50, SR 10.50)
DEATH 1.2-0-6-2 @ 4.51 (Avg. 3.00, SR 4)


Shami

vs. Pakistan

1st spell 5-0-17-1 @ 3.40
2nd spell 3-0-19-2 @ 6.33
Death 0w 1-1-0-1 @ 0.00

vs. SA

1st spell 5-1-15-1 @ 3.00
2nd spell 3-0-15-1 @ 5.00

vs. WI

1st spell 6-2-19-2 @ 3.17 (1 drop)
2nd spell 2-0-16-0 @ 8.00



vs. Ireland

1st Spell 4-0-23-0 @ 5.75
Death 5-0-18-3 @ 3.60

vs. Zimbabwe

1st spell 5-2-8-1 @ 1.60
2nd spell 2-0-22-0 @ 11.00
Death 2-0-19-2 @ 9.50


1st spell 25-5-82-5 @ 3.28 (Avg. 16.40, SR 30)
2nd spell 8-0-56-3 @ 7.00 (Avg. 18.67, SR 16)
Death 8-1-37-6 @ 4.63 (Avg. 6.17, SR 8)

A lot of Shami's wickets have a distinct taste of jam. I think the most striking thing about look at his performances was that unlike Starc, Southee and Boult. He wasn't brought on to find a wicket in the 20-30 over period pretty much at all. Would definitely still have him below the other 3 IMO.

Quite simply, that is because he is our powerplay and death bowler.. HE bowls during the mandatory and batting powerplays and then during the slog... And what do you mean by Jam? I would say the ability to bowl at the death and powerplays is just as important for a fast bowler...

All said, I still think Shami has been the 4th best in this WC behind Starc, Boult and Southee.. in that order.