Dhoni is a superstar. Haters can suck it

[Jono]

I'm not sure how you see it, but the term "haters" is one used for people who seem to illogically bash other people for some type of jealousy. I said in your post you concede that there aren't many haters but state that silly things were said about Dhoni. Translated to me that means: "well, there are a hater-like comments, but there aren't many haters".

That is a ridiculous stretch. Absolutely ridiculous.

I am happy for you to say Bevan is better than Dhoni. I am even happy for you to say Dhoni isn't even in Bevan's ball park.

But if I even slightly disagree and call such a statement silly, you're saying I am accusing you of being a Dhoni hater, or making Dhoni hater comments, even when I explicitly say "there are no Dhoni haters"

Awful Ikki. I don't believe there are any "Dhoni haters" and expressly said as much. I just said there were a few silly posts. If you don't think they're silly, fine. But don't try and paint me as someone with an agenda flying the Dhoni flag who is accusing any one who doesn't rate Dhoni highly as a hater.

Firstly, it is insulting. Secondly, it is absolutely inaccurate and an easy way for you to try and diminish anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint. It's a sneaky way to debate, and I don't like it.

 

[Ikki]

Well Bevan picked up 2 WC medals without batting or bowling in either final.

TBF, there are very few batsmen as good as Bevan, so it's hardly an insult to Dhoni. I don't agree that he's not even comparable to him though, yes Bevan's WC record gives him the edge, but they are certainly comparable, just like Tendulkar and Dravid are comparable in Tests, with one being just a little better by common consensus. And people rate Bevan very high because they followed his career in entirety, not just 3-4 WC knocks, but Dhoni doesn't seem to be extended the same courtesy.

I actually agree with that, although I'd say in terms of being a "finisher" (not just a ODI batsman) that the gap between them is larger. I think it is very legitimate to expect Dhoni to play those kinds of innings Bevan was famous for, if his fans expect them to be put on the same pedestal.

As far as I am concerned, my assessment of Dhoni has changed quite dramatically after this knock and that's because you just play a handful of world cup finals in a career.

As it should, TBF. Scoring/performing in WC finals are rare feats. And maybe you will now glimpse what it means to Australians when they talk about Warne, Bevan, Gilchrist or Ponting with regards to WC performances. You've won one. We've been in 4 finals in a row and won 3 of them (in a row). Imagine how we may view our players.

It may be bold to say, but I daresay both Dhoni and Gambhir will see a further evolution - or maturity - to their game. It may sound a little out there, but IMO the man that has climbed the mountain, so to speak, has a different glint in his eye when looking at the mountain once conquered.

IMO, it is what made the Australian team of the past so great. They were champions, knew what they had to do and expected it of themselves to rise to the occasion.

 

[Jono]

It may be bold to say, but I daresay both Dhoni and Gambhir will see a further evolution - or maturity - to their game. It may sound a little out there, but IMO the man that has climbed the mountain, so to speak, has a different glint in his eye when looking at the mountain once conquered.

IMO, it is what made the Australian team of the past so great. They were champions, knew what they had to do and expected it of themselves to rise to the occasion.

I actually said something similar to my mates. Particularly Gambhir, who should go from strength to strength now.

I also think Gambhir's innings today was greatly helped by the fact he batted well in the T20 World Cup final vs. Pakistan, which would have had great pressure attached to it.

 

[Jono]

No, that's a cop out. No one is trying to separate his ODI performances overall with WC ODI performances to belittle him. He was being compared to Bevan months back and in my mind if you think Dhoni deserves to be compared to Bevan (especially as a finisher) then he has to do things that Bevan did. Bevan was a very special player and played the kinds of innings Dhoni has yet to do. He played a fine knock today, but they do not compare to the innings Bevan played when Australia were a hair away from losing in many matches.

Maybe you will understand this in time, as your country has just won the WC, that this kind of achievement made is a truly special one. It is so different to CT trophies or the glorified exhibition matches which are played year round. Maybe Dhoni will go on and have an awesome WC next time and become the highest run scorer, and you win another WC. Then maybe in the future a new player comes along where people try to compare the two players. And then you will understand that your appreciation of Dhoni is not merely in the ordinary matches but in the pressure-cooker, emotionally charged, games which represent the pinnacle of this format.

Then you will appreciate why someone like me expects much more from batsmen trying to compare to someone like Bevan as you will expect much more from batsmen who may want to compare to Dhoni.

See, I'm willing to take the WC argument. That is fine. And I don't even have Dhoni near Bevan yet. However I can understand where the finisher arguments have come from. They are similar to Hussey.

Do you protest the arguments against Hussey being compared to Bevan in ODIs? Because those weren't from World Cups, but non-WC matches.

How much of Bevan are you actually placing on WC matches? Many of his famous innings were played at home in Australia. Others in India in random tri-series.

 

[Ikki]

That is a ridiculous stretch. Absolutely ridiculous.

I don't really understand what in the hell you are offended about and find it humorous you are trying to turn the tables as if I am the one offending you.

If I am wrong in what you were trying to suggest, then I can accept that. But the difference between you saying someone might have a personal agenda against Dhoni (which you say you didn't imply) and you saying people said stupid/ill-informed/in the heat-of-the moment things (which you said is what you actually meant) means little to me. Because my contention is that it is perfectly viable to hold Dhoni's non-performance against him so the difference is meaningless. However, you wish to define "silly" I disagree with it.

 

[Jono]

Point is you didn't take the route of just saying "I disagree with you calling it silly" comment. You clearly tried to frame the debate as if by me calling your post silly (oh the humanity) I was saying you're a Dhoni hater. Which is incredibly misleading.

It was clearly a stretch, and by your posting you realise that. Not sure why you can't admit you overreacted and should have just played the post.

 

[Ikki]

See, I'm willing to take the WC argument. That is fine. And I don't even have Dhoni near Bevan yet. However I can understand where the finisher arguments have come from. They are similar to Hussey.

Do you protest the arguments against Hussey being compared to Bevan in ODIs? Because those weren't from World Cups, but non-WC matches.

How much of Bevan are you actually placing on WC matches? Many of his famous innings were played at home in Australia. Others in India in random tri-series.

I hold Hussey to the same standard I hold Dhoni. And I think, really, he was better than the other two when I look at ability. But I do not hold Hussey as Bevan's equal precisely for the same reasons I do not hold Dhoni his equal.

Outside of the WCs, their records are pretty close but I'd maintain that Bevan was more complete and his averages across opponents is incredibly consistent. I listed several of his notable WC knocks months back when we were discussing this. I put a lot of value on them but it's not like his record rests on them. He has an incredible record regardless and as a finisher is unmatched IMO - especially when you look at the bowling attacks of ODI back then.

 

[salman85]

Dhoni is the best captain in world right now.Also,the fact that he has two world cups under his belt makes a very strong case for him to be the best Indian captain ever.Whether he goes on to become the greatest indisputed Indian captain ever remains to be seen,and a lot of that would depend on how India perform in away tours in the next few years,but i wouldn't put it past Dhoni to lead them to great heights in the test arena too.

Today's innings was very special indeed.Dhoni might call it his best innings ever,but i think he's played better.Whereas this innings might not classify as the best ever played in a WC final,Dhoni played brilliantly and deserves all the accolades he's getting right now.The only thing where i think he could use a slight improvement is his post match comments,where he should start giving some credit to the opposition too.Otherwise,the man is brilliant.

 

[Ikki]

Point is you didn't take the route of just saying "I disagree with you calling it silly" comment. You clearly tried to frame the debate as if by me calling your post silly (oh the humanity) I was saying you're a Dhoni hater. Which is incredibly misleading.

It was clearly a stretch, and by your posting you realise that. Not sure why you can't admit you overreacted and should have just played the post.

TBH, I didn't appreciate your tone when making those posts after the game. It was as if you were calling people who thought like that out. It's like an "I told you so" and worse, you don't even acknowledge that it could be a perfectly reasonable position to take. You said it was a silly comment; however you meant it. I am here posting, trying to show why it wasn't. That not only do I not have a personal agenda against Dhoni (I actually like him, even if you weren't suggesting it) nor was it a statement made in the heat of the game. I held that opinion months before the match and still hold it even after his fine innings.

Anyway, I don't think it's worth this much fuss. Enjoy your WC win, you bastard.

 

[Jono]

I hold Hussey to the same standard I hold Dhoni. And I think, really, he was better than the other two when I look at ability. But I do not hold Hussey as Bevan's equal precisely for the same reasons I do not hold Dhoni his equal.

Outside of the WCs, their records are pretty close but I'd maintain that Bevan was more complete and his averages across opponents is incredibly consistent. I listed several of his notable WC knocks months back when we were discussing this. I put a lot of value on them but it's not like his record rests on them. He has an incredible record regardless and as a finisher is unmatched IMO - especially when you look at the bowling attacks of ODI back then.

That's fair enough.

TBH, I didn't appreciate your tone when making those posts after the game. It was as if you were calling people who thought like that out. It's like an "I told you so" and worse, you don't even acknowledge that it could be a perfectly reasonable position to take. You said it was a silly comment; however you meant it. I am here posting, trying to show why it wasn't. That not only do I not have a personal agenda against Dhoni (I actually like him, even if you weren't suggesting it) nor was it a statement made in the heat of the game. I held that opinion months before the match and still hold it even after his fine innings.

Anyway, I don't think it's worth this much fuss. Enjoy your WC win, you bastard.

Tbf I disagreed with your Dhoni comment immediately after the Australia win. So before India had even made the final, let alone before he'd scored in the final.

I rate Dhoni extremely highly as an ODI batsman. I'd say two years ago he was the best in the world, until AB Devilliers took that mantle. I felt the mocking right after he failed when out of form was pretty opportunistic tbh (let me stress, not personal!!!)

Anyway.

 

[smash84]

I rate Dhoni extremely highly as an ODI batsman. I'd say two years ago he was the best in the world, until AB Devilliers took that mantle.
Anyway.

I also rate Dhoni very highly as an ODI batsman.

And secondly. Hashim Amla might have a few things to say about your choice of best ODI batsman in the world.

 

[jeevan]

Talking of ODI batting rankings - the official ones - Kohli (joint 6th), Dhoni, SRT, Gambhir, Sehwag (8-11) are ranked consecutively. What a coincidence...

 

[silentstriker]

Bevan was a fantastic ODI batsman, but he's way way way overrated when people start bringing him into the 'best ODI batsman ever' type discussions.

 

[smash84]

Bevan was a fantastic ODI batsman, but he's way way way overrated when people start bringing him into the 'best ODI batsman ever' type discussions.

you must be kidding????

 

[Ikki]

 

[Bun]

Bevan was a fantastic ODI batsman, but he's way way way overrated when people start bringing him into the 'best ODI batsman ever' type discussions.

Slightly disagree.. He is overrated (understandably) by some Aussie posters, but he definitely has merit enough to be considered in a discussion of best ODI batsmen.

 

[Sanz]

Slightly disagree.. He is overrated (understandably) by some Aussie posters, but he definitely has merit enough to be considered in a discussion of best ODI batsmen.

How close he is to Sir IVA Richards as an ODI batsman ?

On a scale of 1-100, I will have IVAR a freaking 95. Bevan at 50. That's how close he is.

 

[Bun]

How close he is to Sir IVA Richards as an ODI batsman ?

On a scale of 1-100, I will have IVAR a freaking 95. Bevan at 50. That's how close he is.

King Viv is right up there at the top. Perhaps alongwith or slightly below Tendulkar. But if you take say 5-6 best ODI batsmen ever, it is almost impossible to omit Bevan from that.

 

[Ikki]

How close he is to Sir IVA Richards as an ODI batsman ?

On a scale of 1-100, I will have IVAR a freaking 95. Bevan at 50. That's how close he is.

The bolded is your opinion, but unadulterated tripe.

Viv and Bevan were completely different ODI batsmen. Viv was a hard-hitting #3/4 and Bevan a finisher (although he averaged 60! at #4). One set up big scores, the other one chased them. In terms of upper order batsmen there probably is no one as good as Viv, with Sachin just behind. In terms of finishing there is no one like Bevan.

 

[smash84]

The bolded is your opinion, but unadulterated tripe.

Viv and Bevan were completely different ODI batsmen. Viv was a hard-hitting #3/4 and Bevan a finisher (although he averaged 60! at #4). One set up big scores, the other one chased them. In terms of upper order batsmen there probably is no one as good as Viv, with Sachin just behind. In terms of finishing there is no one like Bevan.

Agree with this.

It boils down to personal preference as well to a certain degree. I like finishers better compared to hard hitting batsmen up the order. Bevan type batsmen a rare breed.