Dhoni is a superstar. Haters can suck it

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Ikki

He's played against S.Africa, Australia, WIndies, Sri Lanka, England and Pakistan in WCs before this match and his highest score against them was 31.

Yep, he was out of form and batting low in this World Cup. He'd been out of form heading into the WC too, and everyone said so.

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by Jono

Haha wtf?

By silly I meant misinformed and heat of the moment posting which is what that posting in the Aust vs. Ind thread was. Most haven't seen half of Dhoni's brilliant innings, but judge him when he's out of form or a 1-baller vs. SL in 2007. It's silly posting.

Jeez, I say that this thread is an overreaction and I get panned from you nevertheless. Very odd.

I am not really referring to this thread, but the post you made here and the one in the match thread. You make it sound like this one knock makes the prior criticisms suddenly invalid. There is nothing misinformed about the critique Dhoni had gotten for not stepping up at WCs.

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

I think Dhoni was batting at the wrong position in this world cup and hence the poor performances. Nothing to do with not being able to perform on big stage. He is better off at 5 and a position where he has the option to start slow and then explode.

And Ikki, remember you saying on Dhoni vs Gilchrist comparison that there is no case till Dhoni plays the kind of knock that Gilchrist played in WC 2007 final. So Dhoni merits comparison now

Gilchrist has performed far better than Dhoni in WCs although Dhoni is probably better than him overall.

I don't recall saying that but I may have. My gripe is with Dhoni being compared to Bevan. Dhoni has never played the kind of innings Bevan has at WCs. And that's not something I bring up as some sort of tie-breaker - because I think Bevan is better overall regardless. I think it shows a clear lack of respect to compare a colossus of the limited overs game to someone who before today had never played an innings of note at the most important event in said format.

A great knock today, but outside it Dhoni had a very forgettable tourney.

[Jono]

Fairly certain you haven't watched the last three years of Indian ODI cricket really and its obvious you're basing your estimations on World Cups.

Fine do that, but when people rate Dhoni because of what he's done in the format, and you haven't seen it, probably best not to discard them.

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by Jono

Yep, he was out of form and batting low in this World Cup. He'd been out of form heading into the WC too, and everyone said so.

Yet he was clearly in-form in 2003.

[vcs]

Well Bevan picked up 2 WC medals without batting or bowling in either final.

TBF, there are very few batsmen as good as Bevan, so it's hardly an insult to Dhoni. I don't agree that he's not even comparable to him though, yes Bevan's WC record gives him the edge, but they are certainly comparable, just like Tendulkar and Dravid are comparable in Tests, with one being just a little better by common consensus. And people rate Bevan very high because they followed his career in entirety, not just 3-4 WC knocks, but Dhoni doesn't seem to be extended the same courtesy.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Ikki

I am not really referring to this thread, but the post you made here and the one in the match thread. You make it sound like this one knock makes the prior criticisms suddenly invalid. There is nothing misinformed about the critique Dhoni had gotten for not stepping up at WCs.

Hang on. Now you're back tracking.

Point to me where I implied the criticisms of Dhoni were personal.

You can't. Because I never once suggested as much. And you shouldn't make ridiculous claims like that and expect not to get called out on it.

It's a **** way to discuss cricket, and you personalise the discussion.

Fine debate the merits, but don't make accusations you can't back up.

[blahblahblah]

winning his first wc as captain

wow, thats some thing

[Daemon]

LOL MAHENDRA SINGH DHONI IS KING!

India just won. im sorry everyone, india JUST WON>

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by Jono

Hang on. Now you're back tracking.

Point to me where I implied the criticisms of Dhoni were personal.

You can't. Because I never once suggested as much. And you shouldn't make ridiculous claims like that and expect not to get called out on it.

It's a **** way to discuss cricket, and you personalise the discussion.

Fine debate the merits, but don't make accusations you can't back up.

I'm not sure how you see it, but the term "haters" is one used for people who seem to illogically bash other people for some type of jealousy. I said in your post you concede that there aren't many haters but state that silly things were said about Dhoni. Translated to me that means: "well, there are a hater-like comments, but there aren't many haters".

But nothing silly was said. He had a poor WC record, and still has a very ordinary one. Where does pointing out facts suddenly become a silly comment? I am not making this personal but just calling you on trying to make this one innings as a justification of your disagreement with Dhoni's non-performance in WCs.

Originally Posted by Jono

Fairly certain you haven't watched the last three years of Indian ODI cricket really and its obvious you're basing your estimations on World Cups.

Fine do that, but when people rate Dhoni because of what he's done in the format, and you haven't seen it, probably best not to discard them.

No, that's a cop out. No one is trying to separate his ODI performances overall with WC ODI performances to belittle him. He was being compared to Bevan months back and in my mind if you think Dhoni deserves to be compared to Bevan (especially as a finisher) then he has to do things that Bevan did. Bevan was a very special player and played the kinds of innings Dhoni has yet to do. He played a fine knock today, but they do not compare to the innings Bevan played when Australia were a hair away from losing in many matches.

Maybe you will understand this in time, as your country has just won the WC, that this kind of achievement made is a truly special one. It is so different to CT trophies or the glorified exhibition matches which are played year round. Maybe Dhoni will go on and have an awesome WC next time and become the highest run scorer, and you win another WC. Then maybe in the future a new player comes along where people try to compare the two players. And then you will understand that your appreciation of Dhoni is not merely in the ordinary matches but in the pressure-cooker, emotionally charged, games which represent the pinnacle of this format.

Then you will appreciate why someone like me expects much more from batsmen trying to compare to someone like Bevan as you will expect much more from batsmen who may want to compare to Dhoni.

[8ankitj]

Originally Posted by Ikki

Maybe you will understand this in time, as your country has just won the WC, that this kind of achievement made is a truly special one.

As far as I am concerned, my assessment of Dhoni has changed quite dramatically after this knock and that's because you just play a handful of world cup finals in a career.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Ikki

I'm not sure how you see it, but the term "haters" is one used for people who seem to illogically bash other people for some type of jealousy. I said in your post you concede that there aren't many haters but state that silly things were said about Dhoni. Translated to me that means: "well, there are a hater-like comments, but there aren't many haters".

That is a ridiculous stretch. Absolutely ridiculous.

I am happy for you to say Bevan is better than Dhoni. I am even happy for you to say Dhoni isn't even in Bevan's ball park.

But if I even slightly disagree and call such a statement silly, you're saying I am accusing you of being a Dhoni hater, or making Dhoni hater comments, even when I explicitly say "there are no Dhoni haters"

Awful Ikki. I don't believe there are any "Dhoni haters" and expressly said as much. I just said there were a few silly posts. If you don't think they're silly, fine. But don't try and paint me as someone with an agenda flying the Dhoni flag who is accusing any one who doesn't rate Dhoni highly as a hater.

Firstly, it is insulting. Secondly, it is absolutely inaccurate and an easy way for you to try and diminish anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint. It's a sneaky way to debate, and I don't like it.

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by vcs

Well Bevan picked up 2 WC medals without batting or bowling in either final.

TBF, there are very few batsmen as good as Bevan, so it's hardly an insult to Dhoni. I don't agree that he's not even comparable to him though, yes Bevan's WC record gives him the edge, but they are certainly comparable, just like Tendulkar and Dravid are comparable in Tests, with one being just a little better by common consensus. And people rate Bevan very high because they followed his career in entirety, not just 3-4 WC knocks, but Dhoni doesn't seem to be extended the same courtesy.

I actually agree with that, although I'd say in terms of being a "finisher" (not just a ODI batsman) that the gap between them is larger. I think it is very legitimate to expect Dhoni to play those kinds of innings Bevan was famous for, if his fans expect them to be put on the same pedestal.

Originally Posted by 8ankitj

As far as I am concerned, my assessment of Dhoni has changed quite dramatically after this knock and that's because you just play a handful of world cup finals in a career.

As it should, TBF. Scoring/performing in WC finals are rare feats. And maybe you will now glimpse what it means to Australians when they talk about Warne, Bevan, Gilchrist or Ponting with regards to WC performances. You've won one. We've been in 4 finals in a row and won 3 of them (in a row). Imagine how we may view our players.

It may be bold to say, but I daresay both Dhoni and Gambhir will see a further evolution - or maturity - to their game. It may sound a little out there, but IMO the man that has climbed the mountain, so to speak, has a different glint in his eye when looking at the mountain once conquered.

IMO, it is what made the Australian team of the past so great. They were champions, knew what they had to do and expected it of themselves to rise to the occasion.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Ikki

It may be bold to say, but I daresay both Dhoni and Gambhir will see a further evolution - or maturity - to their game. It may sound a little out there, but IMO the man that has climbed the mountain, so to speak, has a different glint in his eye when looking at the mountain once conquered.

IMO, it is what made the Australian team of the past so great. They were champions, knew what they had to do and expected it of themselves to rise to the occasion.

I actually said something similar to my mates. Particularly Gambhir, who should go from strength to strength now.

I also think Gambhir's innings today was greatly helped by the fact he batted well in the T20 World Cup final vs. Pakistan, which would have had great pressure attached to it.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Ikki

No, that's a cop out. No one is trying to separate his ODI performances overall with WC ODI performances to belittle him. He was being compared to Bevan months back and in my mind if you think Dhoni deserves to be compared to Bevan (especially as a finisher) then he has to do things that Bevan did. Bevan was a very special player and played the kinds of innings Dhoni has yet to do. He played a fine knock today, but they do not compare to the innings Bevan played when Australia were a hair away from losing in many matches.

Maybe you will understand this in time, as your country has just won the WC, that this kind of achievement made is a truly special one. It is so different to CT trophies or the glorified exhibition matches which are played year round. Maybe Dhoni will go on and have an awesome WC next time and become the highest run scorer, and you win another WC. Then maybe in the future a new player comes along where people try to compare the two players. And then you will understand that your appreciation of Dhoni is not merely in the ordinary matches but in the pressure-cooker, emotionally charged, games which represent the pinnacle of this format.

Then you will appreciate why someone like me expects much more from batsmen trying to compare to someone like Bevan as you will expect much more from batsmen who may want to compare to Dhoni.

See, I'm willing to take the WC argument. That is fine. And I don't even have Dhoni near Bevan yet. However I can understand where the finisher arguments have come from. They are similar to Hussey.

Do you protest the arguments against Hussey being compared to Bevan in ODIs? Because those weren't from World Cups, but non-WC matches.

How much of Bevan are you actually placing on WC matches? Many of his famous innings were played at home in Australia. Others in India in random tri-series.

[Ikki]

Originally Posted by Jono

That is a ridiculous stretch. Absolutely ridiculous.

I don't really understand what in the hell you are offended about and find it humorous you are trying to turn the tables as if I am the one offending you.

If I am wrong in what you were trying to suggest, then I can accept that. But the difference between you saying someone might have a personal agenda against Dhoni (which you say you didn't imply) and you saying people said stupid/ill-informed/in the heat-of-the moment things (which you said is what you actually meant) means little to me. Because my contention is that it is perfectly viable to hold Dhoni's non-performance against him so the difference is meaningless. However, you wish to define "silly" I disagree with it.