*Official* Match 29 - India v South Africa

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by Blaze 18

I am a little tired of the "haven't beaten a non-minnow" line myself. I've seen that put forward on pakpassion about a million times now. Aside from Australia, every team has lost at least a match - India have only lost one, a close one against a quality side at that (yes, that is hard to believe!). Instead of being pessimistic and bashing/criticizing our side, we should be supporting it. Yes, we have some problems; okay, Dhoni made a tactical blunder (I'd still say that's arguable but screw it for now) - so what? From an Indian point of view, it's good that there a few areas we can improve in. I'd have been a lot more uncomfortable going into the knockout stages if we had won each and every match by two hundred runs or ten wickets.

This! This so much. Everyone knew it was going to be a close game against South Africa, and one that a lot of people were expecting us to lose. What's more is that a batting collapse like 29/9 doesn't happen every time. It's as rare as seeing an elephant hump a rabbit. Our batting is strong, let's not forget this. As for our bowling and fielding, I certainly saw an improved effort last game. It's very promising to see Sachin, Sehwag, and Gambhir bat the way they did. With those kind of starts, you will win the game 99 percent of the time.

[Teja.]

Yeah, obv. losing 9 wickets for 29 is just a freak incident which only happens 1% of the time. Our batting is strong anyway, let's just put it under the carpet. Let's not criticize our divine middle order either.

Problem is you're only focusing about the starts, Yes, With a start of 260 runs, You usually win the game. However, With a fail of 29/9-proportions, You usually lose too. It's incredibly one-eyed to think of only the start and attributing the lolapse to a freak occurrence which doesn't happen ever. (A smaller version happened against England ftr) It's disrespectful to the bowling attack who did it too. If our 4-11 were **** against the two good teams they have played in the WC, It's an area of genuine concern .

[Turbinator]

That obviously wasn't what I was trying to imply there. But what I am saying is that, if you think two games is enough to pass judgement on our middle order and consider it to be a genuine area of concern, then so be it. But I refuse to forget the good results shown by our batting order in games prior to the WC (over a longer period of time) and label it as such so early on in the tournament. There is no doubt in my mind that it will come good, and we will see if I am right or wrong in the coming weeks. But no where in my post did I imply that our middle order is divine.

The way Yuvraj had played in the last 3 games, the way Pathan and Kohli batted in South Africa, they are bound to fail at some point or another. Of course the reverse also applies for our top order. Such is the nature of sport, at the end of the day we can only speculate and predict.

[Sanz]

Originally Posted by Blaze 18

I am a little tired of the "haven't beaten a non-minnow" line myself. I've seen that put forward on pakpassion about a million times now. Aside from Australia, every team has lost at least a match - India have only lost one, a close one against a quality side at that (yes, that is hard to believe!). Instead of being pessimistic and bashing/criticizing our side, we should be supporting it. Yes, we have some problems; okay, Dhoni made a tactical blunder (I'd still say that's arguable but screw it for now) - so what? From an Indian point of view, it's good that there a few areas we can improve in. I'd have been a lot more uncomfortable going into the knockout stages if we had won each and every match by two hundred runs or ten wickets.

But India is not like every other side though. We are supposed to be among the strongest contenders. India have lost only one and tied one when they should have won both. India have not played like a team.

So, despite that if the Indian Fans are going to continue to make Grand Predictions about India's chances against other team, then people are going to remind us that we have not done anything noticeable yet to deserve that prediction.

Before the tournament, India were among my favorites to win the tournament, based on how we have performed on last 5 games, they clearly are not. If I rank my teams about their chances to win based on how we have performed so far, Here is it :-


Australia,
SA,
SL,
Pakistan,
NZ
WI
India
England
Bangladesh.

[Blaze 18]

Yeah Sanz, we should have won those matches but lost. It happens sometimes, that's sport for you. Look, I am not saying we have performed brilliantly so far. I admit there is room for improvement in several areas. What I am saying is that one loss doesn't warrant this much criticism (I include the media in that). No-one knows how long India are going to last in this World Cup. It could be all over on March 25 - ten days from now. We can do all the bashing we want then. Let's support and back our team while we're still in this. That's all I am saying.

[Sanz]

Well, when you are going to make Grand statements as a fan about the chances of your team and annoy the hell out of others, Don't get annoyed at the backlash you receive from people when your team did not back your grand statements.

I am not terribly dissappointed at how Indian team has played, but we do not have the body of work so far in the tournament to make anymore claims about superiority over any of the QF bound teams.

[Cruxdude]

Some of feel better that we have lost a game. Do not think we are a team that is going to win the WC without losing a single game. Better to lose in the group stages and now we have the law of averages off our back.

I actually felt Gambhir kind of killed the momentum we had, but considering the collapse he did fine. Batting power play does not mean people just go out and slog. That was really disappointing. And three seamers is not the way to go when 2 of them are not PK and Zaheer. It is time to try Ashwin and give him a chance to fail.

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by Sanz

But India is not like every other side though. We are supposed to be among the strongest contenders. India have lost only one and tied one when they should have won both. India have not played like a team.

So, despite that if the Indian Fans are going to continue to make Grand Predictions about India's chances against other team, then people are going to remind us that we have not done anything noticeable yet to deserve that prediction.

Before the tournament, India were among my favorites to win the tournament, based on how we have performed on last 5 games, they clearly are not. If I rank my teams about their chances to win based on how we have performed so far, Here is it :-


Australia,
SA,
SL,
Pakistan,
NZ
WI
India
England
Bangladesh.

You're right Sanz, we should just give the WC to Australia. Why even bother playing rest of the games? There is a reason it isn't handed out halfway through the tournament. And who says a prediction can only be made with the last couple of games in mind? There are elements such as belief, passion, and instincts involved.

By your logic, the "underdog" should never be predicted in favour of. With that said, I still think India are favourites considering the other factors I stated in response to one of your posts before (home advantage, recent home record, expectation to peak at the right time, etc). Anyway, this is exactly the reason why I wasn't planning on responding to the pessimism shown by some, we'll just wait and see what happens in the next couple of weeks. For now I'll leave you with a last note in mind, one you are perhaps familiar with -

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

You're right Sanz, we should just give the WC to Australia. Why even bother playing rest of the games? There is a reason it isn't handed out halfway through the tournament. And who says a prediction can only be made with the last couple of games in mind? There are elements such as belief, passion, and instincts involved.

lol......Turbi, by your logic India should have won all test matches, tournaments and ODI series that they every played in

Btw I do agree that not being able to win against two major teams is worrisome but it has to be taken into account that the margin of loss was very small. One or two things India's way and the match would have been India's. So it really is not the end of the world.

And yes India have certainly performed below expectations. Even I expected them to win against SA easily especially after their performance in SA. Home conditions should have helped them immensely. Maybe a little too much hype was created around India's batting and not too much attention paid to the fielding and bowling. Indian fielding has barely been better than Pak fielding and at that too if I include Khatmal (which is a damning indictment). Injury for Praveen doesn't help India but then they should play to their strengths and being in good spinners just as Australia are playing to their strengths and bringing 4 seamers to the SC.

[Mikey29]

India really aren't as strong as they have been made out to be by not just fans, but experts as well. Yes, they are ONE of the teams that are in the mix to be in the final. But the other teams in that mix are:
Aus
Sri Lanka
South Africa
Pakistan

I would have India grouped equally or below these teams. Certainly not above. India's bowling attack, all things considering, is worse than these 4 teams, by a long margin.

Additionally,
The way NZ played against Pakistan, one can't rule them out either. If they can play that well in one match, they can definately win 2 big matches when it counts and make it to the final.

The West Indies are also capable of playing 2 good games, and seem to be playing well going into the next stage, and England may surprise in the knockout stages. Underestimate them at your perill

So, while Indian fans aren't wrong in feeling they are in the mix, i think the favourites tag, considering their bowling, is just wrong.

If they make the same mistakes as they did with their batting against Eng and South Africa, they will not make it to the final. If they finish the innings off with any sort of purpose, they have a very good chance of beating any team in the comp.

[TT Boy]

Remarkable to believe that was Dale Steyn's first 5 wicket haul in ODIs and it only took him 6 years and 52 ODIs to accomplish that. Bowling average is now the right side of 30 and the ER is slower becoming more acceptable.

[Turbinator]

Originally Posted by TT Boy

Remarkable to believe that was Dale Steyn's first 5 wicket haul in ODIs and it only took him 6 years and 52 ODIs to accomplish that. Bowling average is now the right side of 30 and the ER is slower becoming more acceptable.

He should retire from Tests to lengthen and focus on his ODI career

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

He should retire from Tests to lengthen and focus on his ODI career

[Blaze 18]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

He should retire from international cricket to lengthen and focus on his IPL career

Fixed.

[GingerFurball]

Originally Posted by Turbinator

That obviously wasn't what I was trying to imply there. But what I am saying is that, if you think two games is enough to pass judgement on our middle order and consider it to be a genuine area of concern, then so be it. But I refuse to forget the good results shown by our batting order in games prior to the WC (over a longer period of time) and label it as such so early on in the tournament. There is no doubt in my mind that it will come good, and we will see if I am right or wrong in the coming weeks. But no where in my post did I imply that our middle order is divine.

The way Yuvraj had played in the last 3 games, the way Pathan and Kohli batted in South Africa, they are bound to fail at some point or another. Of course the reverse also applies for our top order. Such is the nature of sport, at the end of the day we can only speculate and predict.

That's the beauty of World Cups though. How well you've played in the lead up to the tournament doesn't matter, it's how you're playing here and now that matters.

When your entire lower middle order has imploded spectacularly twice and your bowling has twice made pathetic attempts at defending big totals then you have a serious problem.