indians and pakistani players lazy

[adharcric]

[Perm]

Fact of the matter is that he just isn't Test class. I know the selectors have messed him around but until he makes it into the Test side and cements his spot, then he shouldn't be considered as a captain or anything. Fair enough he should be in the ODI side, and him and Yuvraj make a very formidable off-side field.

[Salamuddin]

Originally Posted by Perm

Three more words: Isn't Test Class

Based on what ? He averages 63 over his last 5 tests.....

Unless India give him a continous run of tests to prove himself, instead of using him as a stop-gap measure, we will not know for certainty whether he is test class or not.

I think he has the potential to be a good batsman at test level. He may not be outrageously talented, but he has an excellent work ethic and unlike many other Indian players, he is good under pressure.....some of his best knocks in tests have come against good bowling attacks with his team in a tight corner.

No doubt Dicko to come on here and give some claptrap in 5,4,3.....

[Perm]

Originally Posted by Salamuddin

Based on what ? He averages 63 over his last 5 tests.....

Unless India give him a continous run of tests to prove himself, instead of using him as a stop-gap measure, we will not know for certainty whether he is test class or not.

I think he has the potential to be a good batsman at test level. He may not be outrageously talented, but he has an excellent work ethic and unlike many other Indian players, he is good under pressure.....some of his best knocks in tests have come against good bowling attacks with his team in a tight corner.

No doubt Dicko to come on here and give some claptrap in 5,4,3.....

Give me all the numbers you want, is he going to force his way into the side before Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman or Yuvraj Singh? No I don't think he is, therefore he can't be judged as Test class until he makes it into the side and stays there.

[Salamuddin]

Originally Posted by Perm

Give me all the numbers you want, is he going to force his way into the side before Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman or Yuvraj Singh? No I don't think he is, therefore he can't be judged as Test class until he makes it into the side and stays there.

Yes But that's different from claiming he ISN'T test class.
Unproven still yes.....but you can't say one way or another at this stage.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Perm

Give me all the numbers you want, is he going to force his way into the side before Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman or Yuvraj Singh? No I don't think he is, therefore he can't be judged as Test class until he makes it into the side and stays there.

I don't think anyone can categorically state Yuvraj is a better option as test batsman than Kaif yet. He may be in the selector's favour, but when I look at Yuvraj's high test scores compared to Kaif's, its fairly obvious that one player scored them in pressure situations and the other didn't.

[Smudge]

I put it down to the lack of meat in their diet...

[Perm]

Originally Posted by Salamuddin

Yes But that's different from claiming he ISN'T test class.
Unproven still yes.....but you can't say one way or another at this stage.

True, it is different but I think it's a factor in determining whether he is Test class or not. Kaif's only Test century came in a team total of 588/8 dec against a pretty mediocre attack, indicating the track was pretty easy to bat on and runs weren't hard to come by. His 91 was made against a good bowling attack, but once again runs in that Test weren't hard to come by for the batsman.

Originally Posted by Jono

I don't think anyone can categorically state Yuvraj is a better option as test batsman than Kaif yet. He may be in the selector's favour, but when I look at Yuvraj's high test scores compared to Kaif's, its fairly obvious that one player scored them in pressure situations and the other didn't.

I would prefer Yuvraj to Kaif in the Indian test lineup, and easily so in the ODI team. His two centuries were scored in difficult conditions against some pretty decent bowling attacks, both his 112 and 122 have come in low team totals (287 and 265) which shows how difficult it was to face that attack and score runs, even though Pakistan in both games were able to post big totals.

[adharcric]

Originally Posted by Jono

I don't think anyone can categorically state Yuvraj is a better option as test batsman than Kaif yet. He may be in the selector's favour, but when I look at Yuvraj's high test scores compared to Kaif's, its fairly obvious that one player scored them in pressure situations and the other didn't.

Kaif is certainly underrated but Yuvraj is still my first choice. Don't see either of them cracking the test side too soon though.

[Perm]

Originally Posted by adharcric

Kaif is certainly underrated but Yuvraj is still my first choice. Don't see either of them cracking the test side too soon though.

Nor do I, not until Laxman, Tendulkar or Ganguly retire or are dropped which isn't very likely at the moment. Plus, I would like to think Yuvraj would make the side before Kaif. Yuvraj to me is clearly the superior option.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Perm

I would prefer Yuvraj to Kaif in the Indian test lineup, and easily so in the ODI team. His two centuries were scored in difficult conditions against some pretty decent bowling attacks, both his 112 and 122 have come in low team totals (287 and 265) which shows how difficult it was to face that attack and score runs, even though Pakistan in both games were able to post big totals.

ODI team is obvious, Yuvraj is one of the best in world cricket in that form.

In tests, its really a pick 'em.

This knock by Kaif is IMO better than anything Yuvraj has produced at test level.

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2...05MAR2006.html

Ironically, it resulted in him being dropped the next game.

He also hit two half-centuries against Australia in 2004 which were back to the wall knocks.

Don't get me wrong, Yuvraj has hit some good knocks too. That being said, I don't rate his 122 vs. Pak in 2006 that highly. The pitch had flattened out immensely, and it was some Shoaib and Asif magic (and just ordinary batting) that resulted in India capitulating. It was still a good counter-attacking knock, but when Ganguly and Dhoni fell, he just played hit shots in what was a lost cause.

His 112 vs. Pak in 2004 was class on a greentop. He also hit a couple of excellent 70s vs. Sri Lanka in 2005, and he's obviously part of the future of the Indian test batting line-up, but I think my overall point is its harsh to deem Kaif as not test class, yet say Yuvraj is, when his record is not that much better, and he hasn't been screwed by the selectors like Kaif has been.

Also, picking between Kaif and Yuvraj depends a lot on team composition. Having Yuvraj and Dhoni at 6 & 7 can be awesome when the top 4 have done their job, and they have liberty to attack. However if India are 98-4, its perhaps not quite Yuvraj's domain just yet.

I can understand why Yuvraj would be selected ahead of Kaif at this moment. Not only have his ODI excellence in recent times been a reason, but with Jaffer, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman and now even Ganguly becoming grafters rather than the stroke-makers they used to be (talking about Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly here), then Yuvraj fits the team composition nicely. I'd like him to improve his record in the next 12-24 months though.

I'm a fan of both anyway, just don't think its fair to write off Kaif just yet.

[Perm]

Originally Posted by Jono

ODI team is obvious, Yuvraj is one of the best in world cricket in that form.

Not going to dispute that at all, Yuvraj is miles ahead of Kaif as an ODI cricket.

Originally Posted by Jono

This knock by Kaif is IMO better than anything Yuvraj has produced at test level.

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2...05MAR2006.html

Ironically, it resulted in him being dropped the next game.

Disagree regarding that knock, while it was a courageous innings I don't think the attack was of the same quality as in Yuvraj's innings of 112. An inexperienced Panesar and Harmison away from home just isn't as good as Akhtar, Gul and Kaneria with Sami being the only noticable weak link. The fact that Yuvraj scored a much higher percentage of his team's runs also is quite significant, with only one other person going past 40 while in Kaif's knock, three other players were able to make it to 40. Yuvraj's innings was also supremely counter-attacking, coming off only 129 balls.

Originally Posted by Jono

He also hit two half-centuries against Australia in 2004 which were back to the wall knocks.

I don't rate his 64 very highly, but his 55 in his next innings was a very good one.

Originally Posted by Jono

Don't get me wrong, Yuvraj has hit some good knocks too. That being said, I don't rate his 122 vs. Pak in 2006 that highly. The pitch had flattened out immensely, and it was some Shoaib and Asif magic (and just ordinary batting) that resulted in India capitulating. It was still a good counter-attacking knock, but when Ganguly and Dhoni fell, he just played hit shots in what was a lost cause.

Another very good counter-attacking innings against a better attack than his 112 was blasted against. Same story though, he made runs when nobody else could and contributed significantly to the team's total.

Originally Posted by Jono

His 112 vs. Pak in 2004 was class on a greentop. He also hit a couple of excellent 70s vs. Sri Lanka in 2005, and he's obviously part of the future of the Indian test batting line-up, but I think my overall point is its harsh to deem Kaif as not test class, yet say Yuvraj is, when his record is not that much better, and he hasn't been screwed by the selectors like Kaif has been.

As far as I can see, Yuvraj is much more Test class than Kaif is although he had a pretty poor series against England and an even worse one against the West Indies. I know that Kaif has been screwed around by the selectors and been made a stop gap measure on a few occasions, but good players should be able to perform. Considering he has played 4 of his 13 Test's against Sri Lanka, I am suprised he hasn't scored more runs.

Originally Posted by Jono

Also, picking between Kaif and Yuvraj depends a lot on team composition. Having Yuvraj and Dhoni at 6 & 7 can be awesome when the top 4 have done their job, and they have liberty to attack. However if India are 98-4, its perhaps not quite Yuvraj's domain just yet.

Yuvraj is an attacking player by nature, his two centuries in Test's have shown this. But he did come in at 94-4 and scored his first Test ton suggests that he can perform under pressure and rescue his side from a dangerous position. 177-5 is also a difficult time to come in, with the bowlers having the upper hand yet he still managed to ton up there as well.

Originally Posted by Jono

I can understand why Yuvraj would be selected ahead of Kaif at this moment. Not only have his ODI excellence in recent times been a reason, but with Jaffer, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman and now even Ganguly becoming grafters rather than the stroke-makers they used to be (talking about Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly here), then Yuvraj fits the team composition nicely. I'd like him to improve his record in the next 12-24 months though.

Yuvraj definately does compliment the grafters at the top of the innings as you mentioned which is all the more reason for his conclusion. A team has to be able to attack in the modern Test arena, and with Tendulkar woefully short of Test form then I can't see India's batting lineup (Sehwag and Dhoni excluded) being able to go after the bowling and really put the pressure back on the fielding side.

Originally Posted by Jono

I'm a fan of both anyway, just don't think its fair to write off Kaif just yet.

I was by no means intending to write Kaif off, but making it quite clear that Yuvraj is the superior Test player and is a better option for when one of the current middle order batsman is dropped or retires.