Okay, so who's gonna win?

[Dasa]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

Vettori will bowl some tidy overs but nothing special - which is the problem with NZ in the first place. They're not going to win the World Cup playing plodding away.with a good but unremarkable cricket. You're hanging your hopes on a sicknote and a guy who's played two ODIs to do something special. The rest of your batting is average at best, look at the records of Fleming and Vincent - they wouldn't make a number 6 spot in most ODI sides (for example Collingwood has a better record batting in a crap spot and is a better fielder). Astle is past his best... Just don't see them winning it.

Ha...if averaging 86.40 in ODIs in 2006 is 'past his best', I'd like to see him at his best...and I'd say Vettori is a better ODI bowler than anyone in the English team bar Flintoff (maybe).

[Matt52]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

Vettori will bowl some tidy overs but nothing special - which is the problem with NZ in the first place. They're not going to win the World Cup playing plodding away.with a good but unremarkable cricket. You're hanging your hopes on a sicknote and a guy who's played two ODIs to do something special. The rest of your batting is average at best, look at the records of Fleming and Vincent - they wouldn't make a number 6 spot in most ODI sides (for example Collingwood has a better record batting in a crap spot and is a better fielder). Astle is past his best... Just don't see them winning it.

Vincent had a bad time when he first came into the side. He was moved all around the order from 1 to 7 and never settled. He got dropped a few years ago and since he came back into the side has averaged 38 in one dayers and 49 in tests. Just his start was so poor that his overall average suffers. Both he and Fleming are better than Collingwood. The problem with NZ batsmen is that they play half of their interantional matches on NZ pitches which seam around all over the show. If those guys played all their cricket in India they would average in the high 30's for sure. You could probably add 3 or 4 runs to each NZ average to get a better indication of their ability. Our batsmen are always underated because people look at their averages, likewise, our bowlers are overated because they play on slow seamers all the time and pick up wickets by just lobbing the thing down the other end and letting the pitch get them wickets.

Taylor will have played another years worth of one dayers before the world cup comes around. I agree about the sicknote. If Bond is injured we will make up the numbers

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by marc71178

So in spite of playing considerably better ODI Cricket than England, they're not going to win. However you think England have a chance?

You repeatedly ignore how whenever England really want to win something like the Ashes they go up 2-3 gears. England having 3-4 bowlers steaming in at 85+ mph in ODI cricket is quite difficult to play against. NZ plodding away at their usual level will not cope with a team trying to win a World Cup - just as they keep losing against Australia in live ODI matches against their full team.

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by Matt52

Vincent had a bad time when he first came into the side. He was moved all around the order from 1 to 7 and never settled. He got dropped a few years ago and since he came back into the side has averaged 38 in one dayers and 49 in tests. Just his start was so poor that his overall average suffers. Both he and Fleming are better than Collingwood. The problem with NZ batsmen is that they play half of their interantional matches on NZ pitches which seam around all over the show. If those guys played all their cricket in India they would average in the high 30's for sure. You could probably add 3 or 4 runs to each NZ average to get a better indication of their ability. Our batsmen are always underated because people look at their averages, likewise, our bowlers are overated because they play on slow seamers all the time and pick up wickets by just lobbing the thing down the other end and letting the pitch get them wickets.

Taylor will have played another years worth of one dayers before the world cup comes around. I agree about the sicknote. If Bond is injured we will make up the numbers

Fleming, Vincent and Astle all average more at home than away (Astle by quite a distance). NZ bowling stats (Mills, Oram, Martin, Mason etc.) are pretty mediocre (apart from Bond and Vettori as far as ER goes). The stuff about NZ pitches being so bowler friendly is exaggerated as far as ODIs goes.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

You repeatedly ignore how whenever England really want to win something like the Ashes they go up 2-3 gears.

And you repeatedly ignore how in Tests England are a decent side even when not fully "switcehed on" - as this current series is showing.

However in ODIs we are tripe, and the last 8 will be as good as we can hope for.

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by marc71178

And you repeatedly ignore how in Tests England are a decent side even when not fully "switcehed on" - as this current series is showing.

However in ODIs we are tripe, and the last 8 will be as good as we can hope for.

England have strength in depth in Tests but not in ODIs (the sub nonsense worked against them as well because of this), also Tests are less of a team thing than ODIs because bowlers can bowl as much as they like. England have had to fill in with 10 or more overs of garbage from Kabir and the like. When it matters England will be able to call on most of Simon Jones, Harmison, Flintoff, Anderson, Plunkett plus Blackwell or Giles. Those bowling at full tilt is a completely different proposition from Flintoff at low 80s, Harmison the same, some solid overs and then Kabir/Batty/Hoggard etc.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

England have strength in depth in Tests but not in ODIs (the sub nonsense worked against them as well because of this), also Tests are less of a team thing than ODIs because bowlers can bowl as much as they like. England have had to fill in with 10 or more overs of garbage from Kabir and the like. When it matters England will be able to call on most of Simon Jones, Harmison, Flintoff, Anderson, Plunkett plus Blackwell or Giles. Those bowling at full tilt is a completely different proposition from Flintoff at low 80s, Harmison the same, some solid overs and then Kabir/Batty/Hoggard etc.

I reckon England have a chance as well. They won a few games against Aus last year and looked alright. On their day they will be hard to beat.

I also think that we have a chance though. Fleming and Astle have won plenty of games for us in the past and there is no reason why they can't this time around as well. McCullum is ever improving, and took it to the Aussies last time around. We bat deep and will compete in every game. I think we will probably make the semi's but from there we will struggle.

If Bond is on fire then we could go further though...Hopefully we can buck the trend and get on a role and make the final.

An NZ vs. West Indies final would suit me perfectly...