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Would Viv have averaged 50 if he had to face WI attack also ?

Career average of Viv Richards assuming he belonged to other country

  • More than 50

  • Less than 50


Results are only viewable after voting.

bagapath

International Captain
Mark Nicholas says:

With one over of the match left, Viv was 150 not out. To win, 14 were needed and Malcolm Marshall - “the greatest fast bowler in the world” - was bowling to the man. It’s that parallel universe again.

The Welsh were seven down now and Colin Metson was in. So I said to Malcolm, “With all of us on the fence, Viv gets a single and you have five balls at Metson and the rest, who can’t bat. We might even win.” So Macko ran in and bowled a length ball on off stump, which Viv blistered through cover for four. Our two quickest fielders - Paul Terry and Robin Smith - were on the fence at point and extra cover: neither moved, they just looked at each other as if to say “Ye gods!”

I’m thinking more pragmatically: that should have been a single. “Macko,” I screamed from long-off, “give Viv an effing single!” Next ball, Macko bowled a quick bouncer and Viv, first rocking forward and then stepping back, hit it over the block of flats that ran alongside the perimeter of the ground on the longest side at square leg. We never saw the ball again, ever.

So now I’ve got the hump and moved in from the boundary at long-off to say “Give him a f**king single, bowl him a yorker and you’ve got three balls at Metson!” So the very great Malcolm Marshall ran in and bowled a good full ball - if not quite a yorker - which Viv dug out and drilled wide of mid-on. For 13 cricketers, two umpires and a couple of thousand spectators the earth stood still: all eyes were on a cricket ball that was scorching a pathway to the boundary. As it crossed the line, each of us snapped back to different realities - 11 men defeated, two men elated, and a crowd in wonder. Viv had cleaned up the game with three balls to spare and finished unbeaten with 164. He had his gloves off and was running towards me, offering his hand. “That was one helluva declaration, skipper, let’s go drink some beers.” And it was one hell of an innings Viv.

“As if he’d have taken the single anyway,” said Macko in the bar at 10 o’clock that night.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Both you and Silfer assumed he would face SL too. In my original question, I assumed other parameters remained constant and he had to face WI only as extra team.
So both of you assume Viv was a SL batsman to avoid confusion.
G Chappell didn't need the SL bowlers to keep his average above 50.
Neither would Viv.

if he were to face the windies he might have averaged 55
I am basing it purely on his mastery over fast bowlers
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
With regards to Viv. Would he have averaged 50 vs the W. I attack, likely not. Would he have retired earlier to maintain his 50 average, likely.

But these arguments can't ever lead anywhere because it so much conjecture. Finn's arguments about Wasim's cathing support and the like can't ever be proven one way or another, and each person's career occured as it occured.

The only really good bowling attack during Bradman's time was his own, and England's was very ordinary. We always say that Bradman is worth two players and he would have averaged the same even in the 80's or 90's, but even in his time the only countries he averaged over a 100 against was India and South Africa who he plundered.

And even though was one series, he averaged an excellent 74 vs the W.I and even that was with the help of some drop catches.

So even though Viv didn't face Maco, he did face Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, peak Botham etc.
If your lowest average vs an opponent is 74, I’d say you still end up with a hefty average in other times. Perhaps not 99.94, perhaps lower, perhaps higher.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Both you and Silfer assumed he would face SL too. In my original question, I assumed other parameters remained constant and he had to face WI only as extra team.
So both of you assume Viv was a SL batsman to avoid confusion.
Too many dynamics to assume he'd average sub 50 if he played WI in addition. No doubt he'd have adjusted his game accordingly imo. Viv is a very very proud man and though I doubt he'd go at 50 + vs full strength WI attacks over his career, I sincerely believe if he were in that situation, he'd make up the slack vs the other teams. Up until his last series, Viv's average was below 50. He made a bunch of 50s and got it bk up over the mark. Yes it was against England, which is my point. He'd do whatever he had to.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Viv Richards scored 3,330 runs @ 39.64 in West Indies domestic first class cricket for Leeward Islands and Combined Leeward and Windward Islands. If he can't even average 40 against West Indies first class bowlers, I'm not sure how he is going to maintain an average in excess of 50 against the pick of the bunch in their best era ever.
Poor argument. Michael Bevan killed it in Sheffield Shield but couldn't cut it in tests. My point? First class sometimes has very little to do with how someone performs in tests. See Carl Hooper.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I think it's possible he might have but hardly something one can say with much confidence either way tbh. There's more randomness in vs country test stats for many players.

I agree though that batsmen who play in teams with great attacks do have a marginally easier time of it. It's something they get a generous benefit of doubt on CW particularly in direct comparison with players who had to face those same great attacks.
Ok, so when making comparisons use teams that both batsmen played in common. Problem solved. Example in Sachin vs Lara, exclude India vs WI games.
 

Slifer

International Captain
So he did just keep playing on for his average. Disgraceful.
Well yeah, Viv played well beyond his sell by date. I have no idea or don't recall why he held on that long. Imo, he should've left around the 1990 Indian tour of the Caribbean.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
If your lowest average vs an opponent is 74, I’d say you still end up with a hefty average in other times. Perhaps not 99.94, perhaps lower, perhaps higher.
I never said Bradman wasn't the greatest.

But look at the attack he faced vs the Windies vs later ones. He only played in 2 countries.

The man was the undisputed GOAT, but let's not pretend he would have done this in the 80's. He had a perfect storm and fully capitalized on it though, and unlike any other.

Bit this is precisely my point, once we go down the road of what ifs, it's a slippery slope.

What is McGrath had to face Australia, or Warne didn't have to face India, what if Sobers didn't have to bowl his heart out, sometimes opening the bowling and bowling marathon spells, what of Hutton didn't break his arm.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I never said Bradman wasn't the greatest.

But look at the attack he faced vs the Windies vs later ones. He only played in 2 countries.

The man was the undisputed GOAT, but let's not pretend he would have done this in the 80's. He had a perfect storm and fully capitalized on it though, and unlike any other.
Bradman might’ve averaged 110 in a helmet and a better bat in the 80s
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Bradman might’ve averaged 110 in a helmet and a better bat in the 80s
I don't believe so, but to each their own.

Again, he never had to travel outside of Aus and the UK, let's look at the bowlers he faced compared to Imran, Hadlee, Marshall etc.

When ever we look at batsmen stats, it's universal that they average less vs teams with great fast bowlers. Yes he would have scored runs, averaged higher than everyone, but no where near 100. He barely did it in the absolutely most ideal situation ever.

But again i'll refer to the later part of my post, and it's why we shouldn't venture into the what ifs. It's not productive and will never been conclusive.
 

Nikhil99.94

School Boy/Girl Captain
I don't believe so, but to each their own.

Again, he never had to travel outside of Aus and the UK, let's look at the bowlers he faced compared to Imran, Hadlee, Marshall etc.

When ever we look at batsmen stats, it's universal that they average less vs teams with great fast bowlers. Yes he would have scored runs, averaged higher than everyone, but no where near 100. He barely did it in the absolutely most ideal situation ever.

But again i'll refer to the later part of my post, and it's why we shouldn't venture into the what ifs. It's not productive and will never been conclusive.
The same should apply for bowlers too,what if Marshall ,hadlee,imran had to face bradman every 2nd year.Would Marshall have averaged 20.9,you can also point out that his bowling average against aus was 22.5 like you did of bradmans 74 against wi and come with conclusion his bowling average had he faced anyone like bradman every 2nd year would be worse than 20.9.You can also point out hadlee and imran averaging 28 against pak and Nz respectively and question what if they had to face bradman.

And after grimmet retired Australia’s bowling was all one man,you can check 1938 series stats too and it was only O’Reilly +grimmett when the two played too,so I reckon England’s bowling attack of 1932 was far stronger than aus and after grum retired too,even when grum played,England’s bowling attack in 1934 was possibly stronger as well,verity+farnes+Allen+ Clark+bowes+Hammond(5th bowler or sometimes 6th in every match)

bradman did score 213 against O’Reilly and grum in one match that he got,the two played together after the two destroyed sa including nourse,Mitchell in 1934-35 and O’Reilly and grimmett possibly were at their best.
 

Gob

International Coach
Viv was averaging 60 after 45 tests and 56 after 65 tests and he was 32 at the time. I don't think he would have any problem averaging 50 plus overall including WI before he hit his decline which by the looks of things seem really bad.
It's also interesting to note that at the age of 32, same age when viv was averaging 56, Allan Border had played 90 plus test matches and Border was older than Viv when he made his debut so had Viv played for Australia, he may well have played over 100 plus tests by the time he hits his decline meaning he had aggregated more runs so the drop of the average due to decline won't be as severe. Plus playing more games could have forced him to retire earlier.
Lot of conjecture and guess work but the question demands that
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Viv was averaging 60 after 45 tests and 56 after 65 tests and he was 32 at the time. I don't think he would have any problem averaging 50 plus overall including WI before he hit his decline which by the looks of things seem really bad.
It's also interesting to note that at the age of 32, same age when viv was averaging 56, Allan Border had played 90 plus test matches and Border was older than Viv when he made his debut so had Viv played for Australia, he may well have played over 100 plus tests by the time he hits his decline meaning he had aggregated more runs so the drop of the average due to decline won't be as severe. Plus playing more games could have forced him to retire earlier.
Lot of conjecture and guess work but the question demands that
This theory works well for any cricketer played longer with less number of tests per year.
 

_00_deathscar

International Debutant
I really would like to know the argument for those who voted no. You lot really believe that had Viv faced his own attack he wouldn't have ended with a 50 + career average?? Based on what?
Based on the fact that he never had to face them and he barely averaged 50 anyway.
The hack.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Viv was averaging 60 after 45 tests and 56 after 65 tests and he was 32 at the time. I don't think he would have any problem averaging 50 plus overall including WI before he hit his decline which by the looks of things seem really bad.
It's also interesting to note that at the age of 32, same age when viv was averaging 56, Allan Border had played 90 plus test matches and Border was older than Viv when he made his debut so had Viv played for Australia, he may well have played over 100 plus tests by the time he hits his decline meaning he had aggregated more runs so the drop of the average due to decline won't be as severe. Plus playing more games could have forced him to retire earlier.
Lot of conjecture and guess work but the question demands that
As I said earlier, he probably would have just retired earlier.

It's a little fascinating to think of how different players would be rated of they had retired a little earlier or later.
I always look at Ponting for this, a few years earlier and may have been seen as best since Bradman and on par with his two contemporaries
 

_00_deathscar

International Debutant
The real truth is that Viv was lucky to never have to face Jadeja in his career.

If he did, he'd have tried to do some pretend alpha **** like trying to smack him back over his head.
And Jadeja would have shown him who's the real alpha, by simply just getting him out.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Unlike Gavaskar and Chappell who averaged over 50 against the Windies due to getting their success in before Garner and Marshall debuted, Viv's career went to '91 so he would have likely 'only' had around Border's commendable average of 40 against them. Maybe 45 if we're being generous like we often are with Viv

Enough to bring his career average down below 50 if he had 4-5 series against them
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Some players raise their game higher when they face stronger opposition. It is not always a case of "Hey, he averaged 'only' 50 without having to face the strongest attack of all time, so would have done worse had he played them". Viv was certainly one of them who played better when the stakes were more. Extrapolations like this might work for some players, for instance Sehwag or Hayden in England or Ponting in India. They just had glaring weakness against one style of bowling due to which it is easier to extrapolate that their record would have taken a huge hit had they played more of the same type. Did Viv ever really had a similar glaring weakness in his game? Was he owned by any of the great pacemen of his time, like Lillee, Hadlee or Imran ? I don't think so. They had their moments against him, but he had his also. He was arguably the best player of quick bowling of his era and unarguably one of the best of all time. I am pretty confident that he would have done really well against WI bowlers, hence the answer is a resounding yes to this poll.
 

_00_deathscar

International Debutant
Some players raise their game higher when they face stronger opposition. It is not always a case of "Hey, he averaged 'only' 50 without having to face the strongest attack of all time, so would have done worse had he played them". Viv was certainly one of them who played better when the stakes were more. Extrapolations like this might work for some players, for instance Sehwag or Hayden in England or Ponting in India. They just had glaring weakness against one style of bowling due to which it is easier to extrapolate that their record would have taken a huge hit had they played more of the same type. Did Viv ever really had a similar glaring weakness in his game? Was he owned by any of the great pacemen of his time, like Lillee, Hadlee or Imran ? I don't think so. They had their moments against him, but he had his also. He was arguably the best player of quick bowling of his era and unarguably one of the best of all time. I am pretty confident that he would have done really well against WI bowlers, hence the answer is a resounding yes to this poll.
Wouldn't his first class record bear that though?
 

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