Vettori v.s. Giles

[Jono]

A stupid comparison - the responsiveness of the pitch to spin makes a huge difference in the figures attained by spinners such as Giles and Vettori.

That is very far from a stupid comparison. If you're going to state that spinners who play the majority of their games in Asia get much more of an advantage, the same rational must be considered for pace bowlers outside of Asia. You can't have it one way and not the other.

I'm not arguing that Rafique is better than Giles, all I'm saying is that you have to be consistent with your rational. By your line of thinking and what you've said, you're suggesting Vaas is better than Gillespie. That's if you were consistent in your view of helpful pitches.

 

[Marcus]

Vettori and giles debate? at the moment i fink giles has the edge after the summer he had, and although both can use the bat, giles is very consistant with it, pitty he cant spin it more

 

[marc71178]

its even worse now 37-8 ya every one here is biased except 8 people

So please tell us why you've voted the way you have?

 

[marc71178]

That is very far from a stupid comparison. If you're going to state that spinners who play the majority of their games in Asia get much more of an advantage, the same rational must be considered for pace bowlers outside of Asia. You can't have it one way and not the other.

The thing is the differential for spinners is far greater than that for seamers between the conditions.

Giles is in fact a prime example of that.

 

[shaka]

I voted for Vettori.

 

[chaminda_00]

The thing is the differential for spinners is far greater than that for seamers between the conditions.

Giles is in fact a prime example of that.

Have u every seen an Asian bowler bowl in Asia compared to how they bowl in South Africa and Australia. They get allot more help the pitches in these two countries then in Asia. Their is a reason why guys like Rana, Balaji and Nisanka all clocked over 140kmh in Australia but don't bowl at the same speeds back home or with the same bounce. It is all down to the extra help from the pitches. Just like Boje, Vettori and Giles get extra spin in Asia compared to the other countries. Fast Bowlers get the same amount of extra help from Non Asian pitches.

 

[anzac]

prior to this season I'd have given Giles the nod, but now I'd say he'd take it by a nose at best...............

this season Vettori has appeared to be close to his best form since the run of back injuries several years ago - his form with bat & ball has been the best I've seen from him & I don't recall AUS batsmen treating Giles with so much respect recently - particularly in such a lop sided ODI series..........

 

[SJS]

SJS isn't alone - similar technical concerns from Billy Ibadulla were in the NZ media last year. I remember hearing him in a radio interview and he made the same comments about less revolutions on the ball, etc.

Thats interesting. I was wondering, how come no one has noticed and pointed out to him.

 

[SJS]

I am surprised that people think Vettori has improved. Take away his performances against B Desh and see what he has achieved.

Since 2000-2001, he has played 11 test series (besides the two against Bangla Desh). During these 11 series, spread over five years, he has taken 57 wickets for 2848 runs at 50 runs each and a strike rate of 102.6 !!!

By any yard stick it is a miserable performance by a leading bowler. I cant think of ONE other bowler in the world who has such a terrible record and has still played such a large proportion of his sides games in the same period in the world !!!

Here are the 11 series details

Series....................Wkts......Avg......S/R

2000-2001 ZIM v NZL.....1......79......312
2001-2002 AUS v NZL ..13......34......61
2001-2002 NZL v ENG...5......56......98
2001-2002 PAK v NZL ..1.....178......240
2001-2002 WIN v NZL ...8......27......54
2002-2003 SRL v NZL ...3......35......78
2003-2004 IND v NZL.....5......67......167
2003-2004 NZL v PAK ...3......74......162
2003-2004 NZL v SAF ...4......113.....220
2004 ENG v NZL...........4......51......104
2004-2005 vs Australia...10......34......74

Overall........................57......50......103

How can anyone consider him a class test bowler? I know stats dont tell everything but this is really very poor commentary on his achievements. I cant think of another side that would persisit with him as a bowler !!

What are we talikng about ? His last series against australia ?? The three innings in which he bowled , he got, 4 for 154, 5 for 152 and 1 for 35 ! Is this some phenomenal return to form ?? I am amazed. Maye he has been taken to the cleaners so much over the last 10 series that this appears like some kind of revival to his fans but I beg you pardon !

 

[Jono]

I'm not going to argue relating to his form PRIOR to the Australian series, but take it from me, those figures in his 2 tests against Australia do not justify how well he bowled. Not at all.

 

[SJS]

Since this thread is about Giles vs Vettori. I think it is only fair to put Giles comparative figures also. I have divided these into pre Vaughan as skipper and post Vaughan phase. Again I have taken away the one encounter with Bangla Desh

PERIOD..........No. of series........Wkts......Avg......Str Rate

Pre Vaughan..........11....................64.........42..........94
Post Vaughan..........5....................62.........31..........65

Overall.................16...................126........37..........80

Note : The pre Vaughan period is 1998-2003

The figures for individual series :-

Against..................Wkts........Avg........Stk Rate

Sri Lanka 2003-04......18..........30.............66
Windies 2003-04.........2...........69.............93
New Zealand 2004.......9...........34.............76
Windies 2004.............22..........23.............51
SAFRICA 2004-05......11..........41.............76

Overall..................62..........31.............65

 

[SJS]

I'm not going to argue relating to his form PRIOR to the Australian series, but take it from me, those figures in his 2 tests against Australia do not justify how well he bowled. Not at all.

Thats possible Jono. Its possible for a bowler to bowl well and still have the figures he had which are not flattering but could be the result even after very good bowling. But my point is, after such a poor show over TEN series, noyt one or two, against all comers, dont you think we need to watch a bit more before jumping to the conclusion that he has arrived and I dont see how those two matches justify such a massive opinion in his favour against Giles who has been consistently bowling well for the last two years.

There is something here to do with short memory. I am also very fond of Vettori and can see that he is a very popular guy. Its not surprising that he should have such a fan following. He IS that kind of a chap unlike Giles, but I think this poll's results are terribly skewed.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Thats possible Jono. Its possible for a bowler to bowl well and still have the figures he had which are not flattering but could be the result even after very good bowling. But my point is, after such a poor show over TEN series, noyt one or two, against all comers, dont you think we need to watch a bit more before jumping to the conclusion that he has arrived and I dont see how those two matches justify such a massive opinion in his favour against Giles who has been consistently bowling well for the last two years.

There is something here to do with short memory. I am also very fond of Vettori and can see that he is a very popular guy. Its not surprising that he should have such a fan following. He IS that kind of a chap unlike Giles, but I think this poll's results are terribly skewed.

I think many people are impressed with his general performance against Australia, not only in tests but also in ODIs. Personally, I'd have him in my world ODI XI right now as the spinner (given that Murali is injured), and people are impressed by the fact that he saves his best for the best competition, if you will. You are right though that aside from against Australia his performance really hasn't been anything special.

 

[mavric41]

I think many people are impressed with his general performance against Australia, not only in tests but also in ODIs. Personally, I'd have him in my world ODI XI right now as the spinner (given that Murali is injured), and people are impressed by the fact that he saves his best for the best competition, if you will. You are right though that aside from against Australia his performance really hasn't been anything special.

I agree and support this post. I think the series against the Bangas was a turning point. It gave him confidence in his bowling again and while his stats against the Aussies weren't fantastic, he was the main bowler for the Kiwis.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I really can't split them.

 

[Zinzan]

Although Giles has the better stats in recent times.....I think most people vote Vettori mainly on his potential given he's only 24 even though he seems to have been around forever. Its not so much the wickets he's taken this season, its the way he's bowled. Given his age and intelligence and assuming his body holds up, there is no reason he won't get better and better and no reason he can't taken 400-500 test wickets (he already around 190).

 

[vic_orthdox]

someone earlier talked about giles versus australia. i reckon it'll be the real acid test, coz i have no doubt that giles is the bowler that the aussies will target. being the workhorse of the attack, and the guy who builds all the pressure, they'll come at him really hard and see if they can get him dragged, and then leave more pressure on the english pace bowlers.

 

[SJS]

Although Giles has the better stats in recent times.....I think most people vote Vettori mainly on his potential given he's only 24 even though he seems to have been around forever. Its not so much the wickets he's taken this season, its the way he's bowled. Given his age and intelligence and assuming his body holds up, there is no reason he won't get better and better and no reason he can't taken 400-500 test wickets (he already around 190).

If he is going to get 500 wickets (another 300) at the rate at which he is getting them so far, Gawd help New Zealand !

 

[anzac]

Thats possible Jono. Its possible for a bowler to bowl well and still have the figures he had which are not flattering but could be the result even after very good bowling. But my point is, after such a poor show over TEN series, noyt one or two, against all comers, dont you think we need to watch a bit more before jumping to the conclusion that he has arrived and I dont see how those two matches justify such a massive opinion in his favour against Giles who has been consistently bowling well for the last two years.

There is something here to do with short memory. I am also very fond of Vettori and can see that he is a very popular guy. Its not surprising that he should have such a fan following. He IS that kind of a chap unlike Giles, but I think this poll's results are terribly skewed.

at the time of the NZL tour to ENG there were those of us calling for his being dropped not just from the Test team but also from the Tour squad because of his poor showings..........he had gone from being an 'unlucky' bowler (injury & not taking wickets when bowling well), to a bowler who was seemingly just going thru' the motions and not trying to make something happen & had lost his guile with flight etc..........

he took wickets in BAN which was a nice change, but the big change came in AUS where despite his figures IMO the AUS batsmen were unable to dominate him, and he has carried this on thru' the ODIs where his economy rate has been his best in years..........bearing in mind that neither pitches in AUS or NZL traditionally help a finger spinner unless playing in Sydney...........

 

[SJS]

at the time of the NZL tour to ENG there were those of us calling for his being dropped not just from the Test team but also from the Tour squad because of his poor showings..........he had gone from being an 'unlucky' bowler (injury & not taking wickets when bowling well), to a bowler who was seemingly just going thru' the motions and not trying to make something happen & had lost his guile with flight etc..........

he took wickets in BAN which was a nice change, but the big change came in AUS where despite his figures IMO the AUS batsmen were unable to dominate him, and he has carried this on thru' the ODIs where his economy rate has been his best in years..........bearing in mind that neither pitches in AUS or NZL traditionally help a finger spinner unless playing in Sydney...........

I did not see him against Australia so cant say much. I must believe he bowled well. But considering his poor show over a few years now, I would like to watch some more before believing he has changed dramatically.

I am not so sure about finger spinners not being successful in Australia though. I think lots of right arm off spinners have had very successful tours of Australia.