Trescothick in cheating revelation!

[BoyBrumby]

Woodfull and Ponsford would both be superior options to partnering Sutcliffe at the top of the order than either of Wyatt or Jardine were throughout the series and it was only due to the leg-theory that Harold Larwood was so effective IMO. Under ordinary circumstances I would consider O'Reilly and Grimmett as far superior to all of the English bowlers on display in 32/33.

Bradman was effectively two batsmen, even if he could 'only' average in the 50's against Larwood and Voce.

Wyatt wasn't of the first rank, but he had one of his best series in 32/33 & there's no way you'd leave Jardine out, even if he didn't. He had a pretty woeful time with the bat, but was arguably the best defensive batsman of his era. Good enough to average 48 in tests anyway.

& it was precisely Larwood's pace & accuracy that turned leg-theory (which had been around for at least a couple of decades before) into "bodyline". There was little margin for error bowling to a leg-theory field because the vultures behind square on the leg-side meant lots of space on the off-side. Moreover, Verity (on the uncovered pitches that pertained) certainly isn't embarrassed by comparison to either &, as a selector, one might have perferred his extra ability with the willow.

Anyway, enough derailing; the point I was making is that it's at best arguable that Australia were superior, it certainly isn't clear-cut for my money.

 

[Perm]

Not a chance. There was no seam bowling. Tiger O'Reilly opened.

It was a good Aussie team but a great English XI. One of the criticisms leveled at Jardine over the years is that he used Bodyline when it wasnt needed. Sure it won the Ashes, but many believe he would have had the same success with 'normal' cricket.

England were pretty equally matched in the top order, batted far deeper (Ames at 9 ), were far stronger in seam bowling and had a spinner arguably the equal anything Australia had.

Would Larwood, Voce and Allen have been effective against Australia had Jardine not implemented the leg-theory? Personally I don't think they would have and I can't really see excellent Test batsmen, such as the ones Australia had, struggle against those bowlers. Larwood struggled against Australia other than during Bodyline and Gubby Allen averaged over 37 against Australia over his career.

Ponsford
Woodfull
Bradman
McCabe

is a much stronger top order than

Sutcliffe
Wyatt
Hammond
Leyland

Also I think it's a bit generous to Hedley Verity to say that he could match Tiger O'Reilly and Clarrie Grimmett, let alone one of them.

 

[Goughy]

Would Larwood, Voce and Allen have been effective against Australia had Jardine not implemented the leg-theory? Personally I don't think they would have and I can't really see excellent Test batsmen, such as the ones Australia had, struggle against those bowlers. Larwood struggled against Australia other than during Bodyline and Gubby Allen averaged over 37 against Australia over his career.

Ponsford
Woodfull
Bradman
McCabe

is a much stronger top order than

Sutcliffe
Wyatt
Hammond
Leyland

Also I think it's a bit generous to Hedley Verity to say that he could match Tiger O'Reilly and Clarrie Grimmett, let alone one of them.

"one eyed, one eyed"

I may not agree with what you state but you also dont address the batting depth and seam bowling differences. Also, you severely underrate Verity.

I cant think of many that think the 32/33 Aussies were stronger than the English but I guess you are in that camp.

 

[fredfertang]

If we are talking about expunging series from the record there is 58/59 and Benaud's chuckers, 46/47 for Bradman's not being given out when Ikin caught him not to mention every series involving Warwick Armstrong on the grounds that ......... well it's enough that he was involved - must have been all sorts of skullduggery afoot.

 

[GGG]

I should become a professional ball-shiner, i have a unknown condition that makes me produce copious amounts of thick glue like saliva.

 

[Burgey]

Meh. Still no substantive response to this from any England supporter.

What about Treco's revelation about the mints falling out of his pockets in a test in 01 right in front of the umpire - he's on the ground trying to pick the mints up, but fortunately neither the umpire nor the batsmen said anything. Ho ****ing ho ho.

"Oh, I was cheating and should have been caught but no one picked me up on it. Giggle giggle".

Dire.

Edit: and BTW, England would still have beaten Australia in 32-33, because we didn't have an attack to bowl out a magnificent batting line up twice.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Meh. Still no substantive response to this from any England supporter.

What about Treco's revelation about the mints falling out of his pockets in a test in 01 right in front of the umpire - he's on the ground trying to pick the mints up, but fortunately neither the umpire nor the batsmen said anything. Ho ****ing ho ho.

"Oh, I was cheating and should have been caught but no one picked me up on it. Giggle giggle".

Dire.

What would the umpires say? Sucking sweets is not against the rules.

 

[howardj]

Are the properties contained in Murray Mints really all that different to chewing gum? Maybe we could have a maximum sugar content for mints/gum enshrined into the cricket laws.

 

[pup11]

Nobody can stop players from sucking sweets or chewing gums on field, and that's fine with me, but its clear from Tresco's statement that England had pre-planned to use this loop-hole to their advantage even before the series started, that's something that's not really in the spirit of the game.

 

[Joe Ninety]

Yeh but Trescothick will make a mint out of it. I'll get my coat.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Nobody can stop players from sucking sweets or chewing gums on field, and that's fine with me, but its clear from Tresco's statement that England had pre-planned to use this loop-hole to their advantage even before the series started, that's something that's not really in the spirit of the game.

Well to me it's something virtually every professional team would do and not think twice about.

 

[Matt79]

Highly debatable whether Australia's Bodyline team was better than England's.

Twas a comment made purely with tongue in cheek to be honest, but glad to have provoked an interesting discussion anyway.

 

[Ahmed_Tariq]

Well to me it's something virtually every professional team would do and not think twice about.

Proof?

 

[Burgey]

Yeah, but the fact others might do it doesn't make it right. You can't be selective about the laws of the game.

In the original story, an ICC spokesperson says it's illegal, but they can't do anything about it, given it all took place so long ago. That doesn't mean teams should do it though. You can't have some laws that you think everyone should obey, and others you think it's ok not to worry about coz everyone allegedly does it. It's like the bloke pulled over for speeding who says to the cop "But everyone else's doing it, you're not stopping them". It's no defence at all, though it's the only one any England fan's come up with so far

As for whether the mints worked or not, Trescothick said he found the best ones after a few seasons of experimentation. Who knows what effect, if any, they actually had, but plainly they thought it had an effect, otherwise why use them?

Anyway, sans mints, sans Tresco sans everything in 2009, let's see how they go.

 

[honestbharani]

Anyone else think it's funny that most of the Aussie team that actually lost the Ashes in 05 aren't thinking much of this but Damien Fleming is making a bit of a song and dance about it????



Fleming s obviously looking for some contract with some newspaper or TV station, I guess.

 

[Top_Cat]

As for whether the mints worked or not, Trescothick said he found the best ones after a few seasons of experimentation. Who knows what effect, if any, they actually had, but plainly they thought it had an effect, otherwise why use them?

Whether they thought the mints did anything would surely be immaterial to guilt in cheating otherwise someone smoking oregano sold to them by a marijuana dealer could be done for possession, yes?

 

[vic_orthdox]

Anyone else think it's funny that most of the Aussie team that actually lost the Ashes in 05 aren't thinking much of this but Damien Fleming is making a bit of a song and dance about it????



Fleming s obviously looking for some contract with some newspaper or TV station, I guess.

He's pretty much the first go-to guy about pace bowling for the media. A very well respected fast bowling coach, who was for a short period of time running the Centre of Excellence (fancy name for the Aus Academy).

 

[honestbharani]

Is it? I have heard him on commentary a few times here in India, esp. during the IPL and he didn't come across as someone that knowledgable about the fast bowling techniques etc.



Maybe it was the "DLF Maximum" and "Citi Moment of Success" syndrome with him then...

 

[vic_orthdox]

I was up there at a time when he was coaching, and all the quicks talked about how good he was. Often heard on ABC radio in Australia talking about the technical side of it. Because of his very affable nature, he doesn't really give off that "expert" vibe, I guess.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Yeah Flemo certainly knows his stuff, I don't like him on TV but the ABC give him reign to really get into the techo of it all, and it makes the ABC coverage much more enjoyable.