The true all-rounder

[zaremba]

But not being as good as Gower doesn't equal being a poor batsman though. And unlike Gower, Botham made the most of his ability.

1. It's you, not me, that drew the (fairly meaningless) comparison between Thorpe and Gower.

2. I'm not suggesting you called Thorpe a "poor batsman". Straw men don't really advance the debate much.

3. Botham didn't make the most of his talent. Hadlee did. Imran did. Border did. Botham didn't. He had an astonishing amount of talent, far greater than any of the aforementioned. At a relatively young age he became complacent, stopped developing, and started regressing. Had he made the most of his talent he would have been one of the greatest players ever to play the game.

Well he was very good at his job, but I much prefer stroke players or those who move the game on more than nurdlers. I'm not a huge fan of Collingwood either, though he does his job.

Well if you choose to write off Thorpe as a "nurdler" that's up to you I suppose, but imo you seriously underestimate him. Yes he played some relatively slow-scoring backs-to-the-wall innings, but that was part of his function as a versatile batsman in a struggling team. And despite this the rate at which he scored runs and boundaries in Test cricket wasn't much lower than either Gooch or Gower.

I'm not knocking David Gower here, by the way. I agree with you that he was a freakishly talented and wonderfully watchable player who failed to make full use of his talent. There's a debate to be had about which of Gower and Thorpe was the better Test batsman. I'd say Gower shades it (he was my boyhood hero and my glasses are rose-tinted) but Thorpe's not far behind.

 

[fredfertang]

I think it’s a bit harsh to describe David Gower as having failed to make the most of his talent – he could be frustrating I agree but at the end of the day if he had had a Gooch like attitude he’d have batted like Gooch and not like David Gower – Gower is the one man with whom I have never had any trouble overlooking his failings and just remembering his best days

Botham on the other hand did let himself down - the same principles apply, of course, but post 85 Botham couldn’t, so it always seemed to me, even be arsed to keep himself fit let alone keep his eye in or concentrate properly on the task in hand.

As to Graham Thorpe if he hadn't had that remarkable ability to get out next morning who knows where he might have ended up in the Pantheon

 

[Migara]

An all rounder would bat at 6-8 positions.

Batsmen #6-#8 average 32.0, 26.9 and 21.0 respectively. A cut off batting average of 30 is reasonable IMO.

On the other hand bowling average for a pace man is 30.3 and that of a spinner is 34.2. Bowling average below 32 for a paceman and 37 for a spinner is good enough to be considered as an allrounder.

I would always get a player who could average 30 with both bat and ball over a batsman who could average 40. because it's bowlers who wins the matches.