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The Official Indian Politics Thread

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Don't know if there is enough interest for this, but worth a thread i guess with the current central government going through a period of turmoil, The Anna Hazare movement being recent and state elections coming in 5 crucial states next year.

Was the first time i could vote the last time, and voted for the Congress party. And what a waste of votes and a failure the UPA - 2 government has been.:facepalm:

Failed on Economic policies with food inflation at a ridiculous 12% since 2009 almost consistently. Been about 40 promises by the ministers including the PM and the FM that it will come down in 2/3 months time and still continuing. And the excuse has been that we can't do anything because of global situation, festival season blah blah blah.....
To add to this the growth is reducing, and even the industry leaders like Azim Premji, Deepak Parekh are saying that there is a policy paralysis in the government. Not to forget the weakening rupee to the dollar getting to ridiculous levels and fuel prices almost doubling as a result.

Now coming to national security, the government has failed spectacularly again. Right from trying to be too friendly with Pakistan too soon after 26/11 to Digvijay Singh making statements supporting terrorist it has been a disgrace. What's more is that the new investigation agency made that was supposed to be flagship to deal with terror after 26/11, has barely any staff and is operating from a mall. There have been numerous attacks and nobody seems to be caught either, let alone the attacks prevented and the excuse everytime is that we live in troubled area in troubled times and not much we can do.

But by far the biggest failure has been dealing with corruption(and that is saying something considering everything else has been a failure too.) Right from the CWG,Cash for Votes, 2G, KG, Adarsh, Air India etccc.... the government and the biggest ministers has been hauled up for irregularities and losses time and again by the Supreme Court to the chief auditor CAG. MP's and even a cabinet minister is in jail, and the government and it's agencies have been seemed to be doing the best to save them using the CBI.
The prime minister Manmohan Singh(who is probably the worst Prime minister since independence and a puppet) has given excuses right from "I don't have a magic wand to deal with corruption which has become a reality of life" to "Coalition compulsions".
And instead of dealing with corruption strongly and putting in measures in place the government seems to be giving the impression that it is more interested in muzzling any opposition on this account, make statements and actions to save those it wants too, Weaken instruments like Judicial intervention,CAG and even the Media, bring about token weak acts like it's version of Lokpal bill("Joke"pal as it was called:laugh:) and also try and weaken what has been it's biggest achievement RTI act by trying to remove institutions like CBI and even other things from it's purview after it has got caught.

In short AFAIC, has been one of the worst governments(if not the worst) and would be better if it falls right now rather than carrying on as a lame duck government which it has become half way through it's term. The alternatives don't seem that better but can't be any worse and a government falling on corruption grounds would strengthen Indian democracy in the long run. But if it carries on, gosh expect a period of uncertainty and probably the Judiciary getting more and more involved to fill the vacuum caused due to the policy paralysis and the lack of decision making in this lame duck over confident government.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Anna Hazare's really pushing his luck now with his constant threats. There was a time for moral outrage. Now it's bordering on childish petulance. The moral high ground can be lost.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Needs to make constant threats to keep his support active and the flip - flopping government under pressure though. They are already making various noises on keeping CBI(Which they misuse to a large degree) out of Lokpal, delaying the bill by holding more discussions on making it a constitutional authority etc....
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
The problem with India and Pakistan is that they expect corruption to be dealt with and eradicated but when everyone from the Prime minister to the commoner is paying bribes or cutting queues, then nothing is going to happen.

A simple example but the last time I visited Pakistan, I was in a queue waiting to buy something to eat. The problem was that no one had the patience to wait for just 5 minutes and get their turn. People were trying to get to the front of the queue, which caused a huge problem for everyone.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Needs to make constant threats to keep his support active and the flip - flopping government under pressure though. They are already making various noises on keeping CBI(Which they misuse to a large degree) out of Lokpal, delaying the bill by holding more discussions on making it a constitutional authority etc....
What I don't get is why he refuses to enter politics. All throughout his initial agitation, they kept making claims of Civil Society being true representatives of the people, with a huge support base. This leads to the logical extension that they should have no problems putting up candidates in every constituency and framing laws from within parliament instead of making demands from the outside. Regardless of the validity of the issues they have raised, they're either overstating their mandate or playing it from the Sonia Gandhi school of power without responsibility. Neither are desirable.
 
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Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
What I don't get is why he refuses to enter politics. All throughout his initial agitation, they kept making claims of Civil Society being true representatives of the people, with a huge support base. This leads to the logical extension that they should have no problems putting up candidates in every constituency and framing laws from within parliament instead of making demands from the outside. Irrespective of the validity of the issues they have raised, they're either overstating their mandate or playing it from the Sonia Gandhi school of power without responsibility. Neither are desirable.
Not everybody has to enter politics to suggest something or protest in a democracy though. That is a convenient argument used by those in power to muzzle any opposition to them once they get elected. Second part being that if you enter politics and lose then you have no right to say anything either since you lost.

As for overstating their mandate or wielding power, not sure what they have done except demanding a Lokpal bill which is strong and Election reforms, it is not as if they are demanding a position for themselves or wanting to set economic and foreign policies. As for their mandate is concerned India is a large diverse country and their are agitations that pop up almost every day and even muzzled or ignored by the governments on many issues including Baba Ramdev on the corruption issue even killing a person.

They tried to do the same with this but failed and it backfired spectacularly, as it was a issue on which everyone wants a institutionalized change and is one on. Whether Lakh or 2 lakh people turned out at different grounds is immaterial. There was a widespread support among a large section of the public not at the ground too, across the country which is what counts the most. And that is what ultimately made his health a ticking time bomb for the politicians and Congress, especially as it's sense of survival came to the forefront. And never underestimate a politicians sense of survival. Most of the time it is what makes it act and it is what it will make it act now against themselves/colleagues and their powers to whatever degree, when corruption has come to the forefront and become a issue.

Now coming back to fighting elections, i am sure you know under the current system which is first past the pole, in every seat there is a massive amount of money that is spent. Most of it black money. Know if the Anna Hazare group were to fight elections to have any chance of winning they would have to spent around atleast 50 to 60% of amounts the others are spending and muscle power, with the size of a normal constituency (to get their message across to everybody) that exists right now and if they can't get so much by legal means it will again go against what they are preaching.
Then even if they win 5-10 seats or say 20 to 25,(which is what they can aim for realistically at most right now with backing) what use will that be in the grand scheme of things in the parliament with the party whip system in other parties being so undemocratic as it is.

It took Congress decades and decades and a freedom struggle to unify to amass a support base as a national party in a country as large and diverse as India and it took the BJP 30 years and a emotive issue like Ram Mandir along with RSS support cadre to get any relevance in the country as a national party.Then there are regional parties dependent on Caste to Religion and what not who have cadres and are corrupt. It would be naive to thing that one issue based movement can sweep through the country and get into power on that basis all of a sudden. Especially, with the first past the post system we have where the second place votes in a constituency count for nothing and only the one who won is King for 5 years, and even then sub servant to his party whips and High commands.
People don't necessarily like the candidates they vote for but unless there isn't a large sense of change and someone else showing their visibility with a emotive issue or money and muscle power, they don't want to waste there votes on someone who may be the best but won't be likely to win.

If there was say proportional representation across the country you could say things would be slightly different(not too much), but under the current system don't know how fighting elections would do any benefit. Then there is a case of these people coming together with a sole issue of corruption and may not have similar views on everything like Kashmir for example among other things which a political party has and sticks too despite there being opposition which is largely kept within. And that is why despite many oppurtunities to do so these guys haven't joined any major existing political parties either.

Sincerely believe that we adopted our system of democracy from the wrong country in Great Britain, which is smaller and way more homogeneous. For a country so large and diverse culturally, linguistically and in so many other ways like India the USA model would have been better and could be evolved and changed much easier too, when needed.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
What I don't get is why he refuses to enter politics. All throughout his initial agitation, they kept making claims of Civil Society being true representatives of the people, with a huge support base. This leads to the logical extension that they should have no problems putting up candidates in every constituency and framing laws from within parliament instead of making demands from the outside. Regardless of the validity of the issues they have raised, they're either overstating their mandate or playing it from the Sonia Gandhi school of power without responsibility. Neither are desirable.
what is your definition of entering politics ? I think by fighting these issues he has already entered politics.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Who would you want to become prime minister Cevno?
Ideally someone like Arvind Kejriwal(Who was the architect of the Anna Movement), but that is too much of a dream.

Right now i want to get rid of this arrogant Congress government tbh. And out of the available options right now BJP is the only one that can provide a stable government and be better than regional parties led by Corrupt crooks like Mulayam, Mayawati, Karunanidhi etc.. etc... and the Communist.

In terms of BJP candidates the race should be between L.K Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley and Narendra Modi.After the current weak puppet Prime minister Manmohan Singh, who has demeaned the Prime Ministers office i would like a Stronger PM the next time who is in control and accountable.

Wouldn't mind Advani tbh for a couple of years if elections were held right now, but he is getting too old. As for the rest i don't know who they will choose as their is a lot of infighting amongst them too, but would probably lean towards Narendra Modi. I was a staunch opponent of his and his somewhat communal agenda and the Gujarat Riots will haunt him forever, but atleast he is shown he is amongst the best current administrators in the country, can bring development to his state and be rated the best Chief minister by many magazines/polls in India.
Also in the Wikileaks cables he was the only one about whom, there were all positive things said and nothing negative came to light. Including being said that he was for all purposes "Incorruptible" and hence resisted by other BJP leaders who want to fill their pockets when they come to power.

The US think tank report which was leaked also Bashed Rahul Gandhi and praised Modi heaps for his development work.This after they have refused Visa to him 2 times calling him communal and Rahul Gandhi having lived there and studied there. And he has been relected 3 times now in Gujarat, not to forget and probably will get a 4th mandate next year.

Out of the other possible candidates won't mind Nitish Kumar also, as long as it is not congress supported as he has shown pretty good performance in attempting to turn around the most backwards of states in Bihar after Lalu and Rabri looted them for years and also has performed in all roles he has had and doesn't have any taints either. But the worry with him would be that his party is regional so he won't be able to command the authority and power ideally needed.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
what is your definition of entering politics ? I think by fighting these issues he has already entered politics.
The rest of my post there gave a pretty good idea of that without requiring the question to be raised.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Not everybody has to enter politics to suggest something or protest in a democracy though. That is a convenient argument used by those in power to muzzle any opposition to them once they get elected. Second part being that if you enter politics and lose then you have no right to say anything either since you lost.

As for overstating their mandate or wielding power, not sure what they have done except demanding a Lokpal bill which is strong and Election reforms, it is not as if they are demanding a position for themselves or wanting to set economic and foreign policies. As for their mandate is concerned India is a large diverse country and their are agitations that pop up almost every day and even muzzled or ignored by the governments on many issues including Baba Ramdev on the corruption issue even killing a person.

They tried to do the same with this but failed and it backfired spectacularly, as it was a issue on which everyone wants a institutionalized change and is one on. Whether Lakh or 2 lakh people turned out at different grounds is immaterial. There was a widespread support among a large section of the public not at the ground too, across the country which is what counts the most. And that is what ultimately made his health a ticking time bomb for the politicians and Congress, especially as it's sense of survival came to the forefront. And never underestimate a politicians sense of survival. Most of the time it is what makes it act and it is what it will make it act now against themselves/colleagues and their powers to whatever degree, when corruption has come to the forefront and become a issue.

Now coming back to fighting elections, i am sure you know under the current system which is first past the pole, in every seat there is a massive amount of money that is spent. Most of it black money. Know if the Anna Hazare group were to fight elections to have any chance of winning they would have to spent around atleast 50 to 60% of amounts the others are spending and muscle power, with the size of a normal constituency (to get their message across to everybody) that exists right now and if they can't get so much by legal means it will again go against what they are preaching.
Then even if they win 5-10 seats or say 20 to 25,(which is what they can aim for realistically at most right now with backing) what use will that be in the grand scheme of things in the parliament with the party whip system in other parties being so undemocratic as it is.

It took Congress decades and decades and a freedom struggle to unify to amass a support base as a national party in a country as large and diverse as India and it took the BJP 30 years and a emotive issue like Ram Mandir along with RSS support cadre to get any relevance in the country as a national party.Then there are regional parties dependent on Caste to Religion and what not who have cadres and are corrupt. It would be naive to thing that one issue based movement can sweep through the country and get into power on that basis all of a sudden. Especially, with the first past the post system we have where the second place votes in a constituency count for nothing and only the one who won is King for 5 years, and even then sub servant to his party whips and High commands.
People don't necessarily like the candidates they vote for but unless there isn't a large sense of change and someone else showing their visibility with a emotive issue or money and muscle power, they don't want to waste there votes on someone who may be the best but won't be likely to win.

If there was say proportional representation across the country you could say things would be slightly different(not too much), but under the current system don't know how fighting elections would do any benefit. Then there is a case of these people coming together with a sole issue of corruption and may not have similar views on everything like Kashmir for example among other things which a political party has and sticks too despite there being opposition which is largely kept within. And that is why despite many oppurtunities to do so these guys haven't joined any major existing political parties either.

Sincerely believe that we adopted our system of democracy from the wrong country in Great Britain, which is smaller and way more homogeneous. For a country so large and diverse culturally, linguistically and in so many other ways like India the USA model would have been better and could be evolved and changed much easier too, when needed.

Your beef is with the system, Cevno. If your viewpoint is one shared by Civil Society, then it isn't merely a matter of getting parliament to set up an anti-corruption institution, it's a matter of rewriting the entire script. They've got to be perfectly clear and frank if that is their understanding too. Civil Society had moved beyond demanding that their voices be heard, to claiming that they had a mandate that placed them above parliament. I believe it was Kejriwal who made this assertion (and in light of your last post regarding candidates for the post of PM, I have to say, pretty poor choice, given his stance). Entering parliament entitles them to introduce members' bills (a route which was completely ignored by parliament). They could have tried getting an MP to introduce their version of the bill into parliament, and then thrown their weight behind it. You can't just ignore the constitutional preliminaries and seek to undermine it. If they found no MP willing to consider their proposal, and they still claim the mandate of the people,then it makes sense for them to carry out their agitation, but also admit that they need to make use of that alleged mandate in future in the way the constitution intended it.
 
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Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Your beef is with the system, Cevno. If your viewpoint is one shared by Civil Society, then it isn't merely a matter of getting parliament to set up an anti-corruption institution, it's a matter of rewriting the entire script. They've got to be perfectly clear and frank if that is their understanding too. Civil Society had moved beyond demanding that their voices be heard, to claiming that they had a mandate that placed them above parliament.I believe it was Kejriwal who made this assertion (and in light of your last post regarding candidates for the post of PM, I have to say, pretty poor choice, given his stance).

I am not Anna Hazare or Arvind Kejriwal ftr, and that was my personal view on the whole situation. System won't get changed overnight or it might not at all, but at least we can take steps to improve the situation and one of the steps is setting up a Lokpal, which the parliament is stalling for 44 years as it will act against the interests of those holding power and never has been a vote getter till now or a vote loser to oppose. While some bill's which have vested interests to them get passed in 30 minutes. What is the reasoning for that can you please explain?

As for the view of Arvind Kejriwal, the version you are presenting is the one distorted by the Congress politicians and from the other so called corrupt social justice lobby parties.

All he was asked was is that is Anna Hazare above Parliament, he replied no but according to the constitution, every Citizen is above Parliament.
Then the interviewer asked by that logic is Anna Hazare and you and the rest of your supporters above Parliament, he said yes. All twisted around to present as if he was advocation some other form of governance or challenging the constitution.

Those exact same words were also said by Varun Gandhi, Ajit singh's son and also Mrs.Badal who spoke for Akali Dal, on the floor of parliament. What's the hoohah about?
The Indian constitution says We the people of India give ourselves the constitution and starts of from there....
Democracy doesn't mean you vote once in 5 years and then sit and watch as your MP, does whatever he wants in Parliament without saying anything.


Entering parliament entitles them to introduce members' bills (a route which was completely ignored by parliament). They could have tried getting an MP to introduce their version of the bill into parliament, and then thrown their weight behind it. You can't just ignore the constitutional preliminaries and seek to undermine it. If they found no MP willing to consider their proposal, and they still claim the mandate of the people,then it makes sense for them to carry out their agitation, but also admit that they need to make use of that alleged mandate in future in the way the constitution intended it.
I believe Varun Gandhi and another couple of MP's already introduced their bill and Ram Jethmalani said he would too and then it has been officially presented to the standing committee too. But this was after the pressure was put on them after the agitation, not before.
But good luck getting those bills even considered in parliament with the speaker being a appointee of the government and the Party issuing whips on their MP'S and not allowing individual votes. The anti - defection law says a MP defying the whip can be disqualified from the house and removed from the party too, which is how democratic?
We don't even know where individual MP'S stand on what issue. Even Parties half the time cheat on their manifestos.

All they are doing is advocating for reforms and a bill and reforms. Happens all over the world including in US and Britain where lobby groups keep doing the same whether it be concerning environment, guns or anything. If they are beneficial or popular no party or MP etc.... can resist it and if they are not they get muzzled or ignored. How is it anything unconstitutional is beyond me and i think they should keep doing it as in India the power of a negative vote they can cause against a party will be a lot more to threaten them, than if they stand for election and get even about 10% of popular vote with the first past the post system. Even in India look at the new state creation agitations, or the RTI movement, or the Farmers or Transporters who hold rallies or Women's reservation bill movement etc.....even in recent times asking for a bill or a change.

And once the cycle of cleaning up the system picks up speed and becomes more of a issue and thus results in more steps, then the existing MP'S will themselves perform better and also more clean people will enter into politics and even they can if they want. Though, at the end of the day every citizen has a right to galvanize popular support with regards to a cause in a democracy to pressurize parliament/government as long as it is not illegal or divisive, especially in a country like India where there is no referendum.
 
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Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Guys, you should see what they're saying about India in the Pakistan politics thread!!!

:ph34r:
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
The rest of my post there gave a pretty good idea of that without requiring the question to be raised.
I think it did until you drew a comparison with Sonia Gandhi who has done exactly what you suggested i.e. fought a lok sabha election, was a leader of opposition and probably would have become a PM if not for the grand debate about her birth place and Italian connection.

I disagree with you that the next logical step for him is to enter the traditional politics that is to form a political party and start contesting elections. I don't have a problem if he does so, and do not have a problem if he does not do it either. It is his choice. I am not going to invalidate his movement by the choice he makes. As a citizen of India he has every right to do what he is doing and in fact these are the same methods that helped India gain its independence. Gandhi never contested an election, are we going to call his movements as non-political ?
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
Guys, you should see what they're saying about India in the Pakistan politics thread!!!

:ph34r:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I think it did until you drew a comparison with Sonia Gandhi who has done exactly what you suggested i.e. fought a lok sabha election, was a leader of opposition and probably would have become a PM if not for the grand debate about her birth place and Italian connection.

I disagree with you that the next logical step for him is to enter the traditional politics that is to form a political party and start contesting elections. I don't have a problem if he does so, and do not have a problem if he does not do it either. It is his choice. I am not going to invalidate his movement by the choice he makes. As a citizen of India he has every right to do what he is doing and in fact these are the same methods that helped India gain its independence. Gandhi never contested an election, are we going to call his movements as non-political ?
So what you are trying to say is that Anna Hazare can have the same effect on Indian politics with or without entering the formal political structure i.e. without contesting elections (either through a party or as an independent)?
 

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