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Stadiums of Hate

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Figured there'll be plenty of incidents in the tournament that fit the bill, so I've left the thread title a little more generic.

I have been watching the Panorama document on the BBC entitled Stadiums of Hate. Err yea, Nazi-ism still alive and well then. Slightly comedic bit where the Oxbridge toff goes 'bloody hell' but it's just nuts...
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Figured there'll be plenty of incidents in the tournament that fit the bill, so I've left the thread title a little more generic.

I have been watching the Panorama document on the BBC entitled Stadiums of Hate. Err yea, Nazi-ism still alive and well then. Slightly comedic bit where the Oxbridge toff goes 'bloody hell' but it's just nuts...

It was fairly shocking wasn't it? Another reason why I'm not really up for this Tournament, roll on the Olympics.....
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Strikes me as slightly odd that neo-nazism should be alive and well in the Ukraine - perhaps it was all just too long ago
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Strikes me as slightly odd that neo-nazism should be alive and well in the Ukraine - perhaps it was all just too long ago
Bear in mind that the Eastern Bloc suffered for decades under Russian rule and that Hitler's armies "liberated" the populations of the Soviet Union...Hitler and Nazism aren't as reviled in the Eastern Bloc as they are in Western Europe.

It's the Poles that surprised me more, although given that Poland is about 99% Polish it doesn't surprise me that they're not too keen on "foreigners". The role of a large part of the Polish population in the Holocaust also tends to get a bit swept under the carpet because Hitler quite liked murdering a lot of Poles as well.
 
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cpr

International Coach
Meh, Poles will leave us alone, or we'll sack their uncles and the money home will stop. Ikkinomics
 
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fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bear in mind that the Eastern Bloc suffered for decades under Russian rule and that Hitler's armies "liberated" the populations of the Soviet Union...Hitler and Nazism aren't as reviled in the Eastern Bloc as they are in Western Europe.

It's the Poles that surprised me more, although given that Poland is about 99% Polish it doesn't surprise me that they're not too keen on "foreigners". The role of a large part of the Polish population in the Holocaust also tends to get a bit swept under the carpet because Hitler quite liked murdering a lot of Poles as well.
Oh I appreciate that in the early part of WW2 there were plenty of Ukrainians who saw the Germans as liberators - I was more surprised in light of the indoctrination that then went on in schools during the USSR era
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Oh I appreciate that in the early part of WW2 there were plenty of Ukrainians who saw the Germans as liberators - I was more surprised in light of the indoctrination that then went on in schools during the USSR era
True, but if we accept that the typical Ultra will be male and in his 20s, the vast majority of them would have been schooled after the fall of the Soviet Union, and the younger Ultras in the 16-21 age bracket won't even remember the Soviet Union as it fell before they were even born.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Prior to the World Cup every football fan was highly susceptible to being robbed, raped and killed according to the UK media while going to the idyllic countries of Poland and Ukraine according to Sol Campbell, a player who received death threats and homophobic and racist taunts while playing in England, you will be coming home in a coffin.

I suspect if Panorama did an expose on football fans in the UK, took their cameras to say Ibrox and recorded their supporters signing hits such as “The famine Is over so why don’t you go home?” or travelled with them to Israel, where Rangers fans did one armed salutes, a similar faux opinion of football fans in the UK will be formed?

2014 World Cup, Rio slums use stock footage from Ross Kemp on Gangs as the World Cup will take place in those slums like the 2010 WC was hosted in the Cape Flats. 2018 World Cup, Russia, Danny Dyer went there, didn't he? Have Chris Samba on saying a banana was thrown at him while showing footage of a Chinese immigrant being brutality beat up by a bunch of thugs on the Moscow metro as that's relevant to watching football games abroad.
 
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sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Granted the footage shown wasn't good, but this was a very BBC style documentary, if you get what I mean. To be taken with a pinch of salt.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I think one of the worst aspects of it was the Ukrainian Official denying there was anything racist going on. The attack on the Asian students, was utterly unprovoked and there seemed to be no help from stewards. There are scum supporters everywhere, but where there is head in sand stuff from authorities, how will it get better.

I'm not quite sure why TTBoy is trivialising it, won't make it go away. Did you actually watch it?
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I suspect if Panorama did an expose on football fans in the UK, took their cameras to say Ibrox and recorded their supporters signing hits such as “The famine Is over so why don’t you go home?” or travelled with them to Israel, where Rangers fans did one armed salutes, a similar faux opinion of football fans in the UK will be formed?
You're aware that song was written by an Irishman, aren't you?

I'm aware that I'm going to sound like that Ukranian cop, but those weren't Nazi salutes, although it's ****ing cringeworthy. Because to the rest of the population, people are going to use the "if it looks like a duck" logic, and it doesn't look good.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
You're aware that song was written by an Irishman, aren't you?

I'm aware that I'm going to sound like that Ukranian cop, but those weren't Nazi salutes, although it's ****ing cringeworthy. Because to the rest of the population, people are going to use the "if it looks like a duck" logic, and it doesn't look good.
Written? Insert racist lyrics onto the tune of a Beach Boys song.
 

wpdavid

International Coach
I think one of the worst aspects of it was the Ukrainian Official denying there was anything racist going on. The attack on the Asian students, was utterly unprovoked and there seemed to be no help from stewards. There are scum supporters everywhere, but where there is head in sand stuff from authorities, how will it get better.
Same old same old. 20 to 30 years ago over here, the responses to racism in Englsih grounds were firstly to pretend it wasn't happening, eventually to admit that it was happening but it's only a small minority, and finally to claim that it was society's problem, so please don't expect clubs supposed to do anything about it.

The depressing response from the Ukrainian official claiming that the BC report is bogus suggests that they are happy to be in stage 1 at the moment, so I shouldn't hold you breath about any action being taken. Recent incidents in Western Europe and the pitiful measures taken by UEFA give a fair idea of where things are at.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
I think one of the worst aspects of it was the Ukrainian Official denying there was anything racist going on. The attack on the Asian students, was utterly unprovoked and there seemed to be no help from stewards. There are scum supporters everywhere, but where there is head in sand stuff from authorities, how will it get better.

I'm not quite sure why TTBoy is trivialising it, won't make it go away. Did you actually watch it?
No. Will stream it later.

Just listened to it being discussed on 5 Live and Sol Campbell's comments. Debate so far seems extremely alarming considering of my experiences in Poland and when it was raised that London is hosting an Olympics, just a year after the city and country was engulfed by rioters, they replied but the Olympics would have world class security but then so will Poland and the Ukraine. BBC filmed domestic games where there is domestic policing and officiating and where tickets cost tuppence. The EUROS will have officials who have attended the UEFA workshops, be accredited by UEFA and where the majority of allocated tickets in Poland for instance are for corporate/members and sponsors of the Polish FA. Different kettle of fish to the Polish supporters who went to Northern Ireland looking for a fight.
 

wpdavid

International Coach
Granted the footage shown wasn't good, but this was a very BBC style documentary, if you get what I mean. To be taken with a pinch of salt.
Really? Granted we don't know exactly how typical it is, but even the incidents we saw were shocking enough.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Really? Granted we don't know exactly how typical it is, but even the incidents we saw were shocking enough.
Yeah, the incidents shown were pretty shocking, but at the same time, you could probably go around Europe and get some footage of this sort from plenty of stadiums. It just so happens that the upcoming Euro Competition is being played in Poland and Ukraine. I mean if we were to go and take a camera into a crowd section of Lazio ultras, we'd undoubtedly see similar scenes.

I don't want to belittle what is undoubtedly a serious issue, but the problem I have with this sort of expose documentary is that it inevitably leans pretty heavily on whatever angle it favours. Such is the nature of such a programme I suppose. It was the kind of show that I would watch if I had already had an understanding of the salient issues, but if I wanted to learn afresh and make up my own mind about the severity of the situation I'd go elsewhere.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
No. Will stream it later.

Just listened to it being discussed on 5 Live and Sol Campbell's comments. Debate so far seems extremely alarming considering of my experiences in Poland and when it was raised that London is hosting an Olympics, just a year after the city and country was engulfed by rioters, they replied but the Olympics would have world class security but then so will Poland and the Ukraine. BBC filmed domestic games where there is domestic policing and officiating and where tickets cost tuppence. The EUROS will have officials who have attended the UEFA workshops, be accredited by UEFA and where the majority of allocated tickets in Poland for instance are for corporate/members and sponsors of the Polish FA. Different kettle of fish to the Polish supporters who went to Northern Ireland looking for a fight.
This is all true but the ultras who follow domestic football in both countries will still be in the country.
 

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