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Sportswashing

Uppercut

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i wonder if the appropriateness of a sports "boycott" depends on the nation then

eg i would say north korea is a country who we should be doing a lot more to play sports with. south africa during apartheid to my understanding, and correct me if i'm wrong, were illiberal though not cloistered right? which is to say, with countries that are already in the "outgroup" boycotts serve only to further isolate, but countries that are in the "ingroup" of trade and commerce etc, maybe boycotts are more appropriate there
Instinctively I think it's more about how integral to the sport the illiberalism is. I don't think we should play in events that women or gay people are banned from attending. In that case it's just so difficult to participate without sending the message that it's acceptable. That might be more analogous to the Apartheid boycott.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
It’s more like hanging out dirty laundry than washing. If anyone didn’t know that Qatar imprisons, and in some cases shoots, gay people they soon will.
I can’t wait for the English yobs to rock up and ask the locals where they can get a pint.
 

morgieb

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i wonder if the appropriateness of a sports "boycott" depends on the nation then

eg i would say north korea is a country who we should be doing a lot more to play sports with. south africa during apartheid to my understanding, and correct me if i'm wrong, were illiberal though not cloistered right? which is to say, with countries that are already in the "outgroup" boycotts serve only to further isolate, but countries that are in the "ingroup" of trade and commerce etc, maybe boycotts are more appropriate there
Be interesting to see where you stand on Australia cancelling the Afghanistan Test because of the Taliban's return to power. It's hard to know what a cultural boycott would do, but at the same time should you play sport against countries that won't let half the population leave the house?
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
Instinctively I think it's more about how integral to the sport the illiberalism is. I don't think we should play in events that women or gay people are banned from attending. In that case it's just so difficult to participate without sending the message that it's acceptable. That might be more analogous to the Apartheid boycott.
i think you're probably right on this one yeah a well made point

maybe i am stretching here then but really thinking about that logic i wonder then if we should be talking about doing the same in american states where they are banning trans girls from playing in sports that match their affirmed gender
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
Be interesting to see where you stand on Australia cancelling the Afghanistan Test because of the Taliban's return to power. It's hard to know what a cultural boycott would do, but at the same time should you play sport against countries that won't let half the population leave the house?
regrettably my take on this isn't interesting rather it's typically dreadful

i think it was a bad idea to cancel it, it hurts the regular afghan people who might want a semi return to normalcy more than it hurts the taliban and only encourages the taliban to further cloister themself from liberal society
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
i think you're probably right on this one yeah a well made point

maybe i am stretching here then but really thinking about that logic i wonder then if we should be talking about doing the same in american states where they are banning trans girls from playing in sports that match their affirmed gender
when North Carolina banned trans people from using the bathroom the USAnian sports world reacted pretty harshly, and although this is more direct on sports it's also slightly more controversial in that some of the people on the other side of the debate are introducing more widereaching policies on trans participation than I think most trans athletes ask for


to be honest I think the main effect of the trans girls' sports bans will be invasive *** testing of cis girls to the point where they either stop playing or enough angry soccer moms get to the court (presumably against other angry soccer moms scared their daughter will lose their soccer place to the scrawny trans girl with -8 eyesight who plays left back)
 
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Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
when North Carolina banned trans people from using the bathroom the USAnian sports world reacted pretty harshly


to be honest I think the main effect of the trans girls' sports bans will be invasive *** testing of cis girls to the point where they either stop playing or enough angry soccer moms get to the court (presumably against other angry soccer moms scared their girl will lose their soccer place to the scrawny trans girl with -8 eyesight who plays left back)
wow i didn't know about that bill but what became of it's a huge win for lgbtq+ activism in that country and that's immense

as re your second point yeah i forget which state has put laws up that allow any Concerned Citizen to demand a doctor shove their hand between girls' legs for a check if they're feminine enough there lately but they've been rightly copping enormous flack from the types of people we follow on the twitters... and not to mention we're likely to see those laws disproportionately relied on to pull such testing on girls of colour too
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
to get back to the Middle East sport buying thing, I don't think they are doing it to look better in the eyes of the club they are buying. The City Football Group does not care where its players are in the world as long as they are in front of as many television eyes as possible. I also kinda expect it does a good job of getting business contacts with Chinese companies, in deals where neither party give much of a toss about how this will reflect on their human rights record?
 

Spark

Global Moderator
but as u point out more broadly i think outright shunning so called bad guy countries leads to more revanchism (@Spark did i use that right?)
you'll have to explain to me how this works because I don't see it. what russia is doing in ukraine right now is revanchism, not so much buying sports teams. if anything it's engagement with such powers like russia which have empowered its revanchist dreams.

in general though i get where the critics of sportswashing are coming from, but they tend to make the mistake of thinking sports are much, much, much, much more important than they actually are.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
you'll have to explain to me how this works because I don't see it. what russia is doing in ukraine right now is revanchism, not so much buying sports teams. if anything it's engagement with such powers like russia which have empowered its revanchist dreams.

in general though i get where the critics of sportswashing are coming from, but they tend to make the mistake of thinking sports are much, much, much, much more important than they actually are.
If sport wasn't important then you wouldn't have sovereign wealth funds from the Middle East purchasing football clubs and ploughing billions into the sport.

As an F1 fan I'm getting fed up with Grands Prix being held in ****holes like Azerbaijan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain etc.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I think it's a mistake to assume all authoritarian/repressive/absolute monarchist regimes are set on hosting major sporting events and/or funding/sponsoring sports teams just to improve their reputation with the outside world.

I suspect a lot of the "authoritarian strong man" styley leaders get a hard on for hosting world cups or Olympics to show their own populations how big their willies are.

Goes all the way back to fascist Italy hosting the WC in 1934 and, more famously, Nazi Germany putting on the Olympics in 36.
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
you'll have to explain to me how this works because I don't see it. what russia is doing in ukraine right now is revanchism, not so much buying sports teams. if anything it's engagement with such powers like russia which have empowered its revanchist dreams.

in general though i get where the critics of sportswashing are coming from, but they tend to make the mistake of thinking sports are much, much, much, much more important than they actually are.
ok so i misused revanchism

i thought it meant cloistering yourself off away from global society
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
I think it's a mistake to assume all authoritarian/repressive/absolute monarchist regimes are set on hosting major sporting events and/or funding/sponsoring sports teams just to improve their reputation with the outside world.

I suspect a lot of the "authoritarian strong man" styley leaders get a hard on for hosting world cups or Olympics to show their own populations how big their willies are.

Goes all the way back to fascist Italy hosting the WC in 1934 and, more famously, Nazi Germany putting on the Olympics in 36.
for all of the talk of "jesse owens getting gold at the hitlerlympics was a huge strike against nazi ideology" wasn't it so that hitler quite liked jesse owens personally or was that just an urban myth?
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
for all of the talk of "jesse owens getting gold at the hitlerlympics was a huge strike against nazi ideology" wasn't it so that hitler quite liked jesse owens personally or was that just an urban myth?
Nah, there was a German long jumper Luz Long who finished 2nd to Owens, who was the archetypal blonde hair, blue eyed vision of Aryan perfection who befriended Owens in Berlin.
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
Nah, there was a German long jumper Luz Long who finished 2nd to Owens, who was the archetypal blonde hair, blue eyed vision of Aryan perfection who befriended Owens in Berlin.
yeah seems that i got snopes'd, the owens and hitler were mates thing was not true https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jesse-owens-and-hitler-handshake/

but neither was hitler apparently outrageously incensed about the owens win any more than any other https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/571 (not that that matters give, yknow all the other stuff that he did)
 

social

Hall of Fame Member
It’s more like hanging out dirty laundry than washing. If anyone didn’t know that Qatar imprisons, and in some cases shoots, gay people they soon will.
I can’t wait for the English yobs to rock up and ask the locals where they can get a pint.
Agreed

I could understand it if every tournament was being held in Saudi & it was used to showcase the “delights” of the country but that isn’t the case
 

Shady Slim

Cricketer Of The Year
(incoming shadypost)

i mean the usa's more than happy to sell weapons to the saudis anyway which they use for a lot of genociding so if we're talking boycotting institutions who are supportive of the saudi regime the us government should be at the top of the list
 

Uppercut

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The Rumble in the Jungle is an example that never really comes up. Might be wrong but from what I’ve read the idea that it should have been boycotted on humanitarian grounds never even seemed to come up. In that political context it would probably have come across as transparently racist.

It never comes up when events take place in China either. When people point this kind of thing out it’s usually to defend a team they support, and they’re accused of whataboutery. But the more I think about it the more accurate DCYE’s post is.
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
It never comes up when events take place in China either. When people point this kind of thing out it’s usually to defend a team they support, and they’re accused of whataboutery. But the more I think about it the more accurate DCYE’s post is.
there was a rumble about boycotting the winter olympics but it ultimately came to nothing ofc (one of the gold medallists gave his medal to the family of a gaoled Chinese opposition figure)

the word sportwashing wasn't used but there was definitely a bit "why are we trying to sell skiing to the chinese middle class when the desert they're making ski resorts in definitely won't support winter sports in twenty years from now"
 

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