Some old bowlers...

[Starfighter]

While we're on the subject of old fast bowlers a while ago watson posted the following from Ray Robinson's Between​ Wickets ranking some of the interwar fast bowlers in terns of pace as follows:

1: Larwood
2: Gregory, McDonald
3: McCormick, Alexander, Farnes, Allen, Howell, Crisp, Constantine
4: Wall, Thurlow, Nash, Hitch, Clark, Durston, Griffith, Francis
5: Voce, Nichols, Bowes, Gilligan, Bell

I do note that some of these disagree a little from other articles I have seen, mostly posted by AMZ elsewhere.

and AndrewB posted the following comment:

Curiously, in the revised (1958) version of "Between Wickets" Robinson ranks McCormick for pace alongside Larwood (and Tyson). (He also combines groups 3, 4 and 5 into one group - Miller, Lindwall and Adcock are the only additions to group 2).

If AndrewB sees this I wonder if he could fill in who some of the other bowlers in the 1958 version were if he remembers or has the details on hand? I'd be curious to know, I think by '58 Robinson must have seen Bailey, Statham and maybe Warr and Edrich, Davidson and a couple of other Australians and maybe Prior Jones.

 

[the big bambino]

Thats a good juxtaposition and they do look similar in style. The Cardus analogy is actually on Gregory's cricinfo profile (2nd para) where he mentions Gregory having a long run of 20 yards. Which doesn't seem long today but may have been then. I think Hall's was longer still.

 

[Starfighter]

Thats a good juxtaposition and they do look similar in style. The Cardus analogy is actually on Gregory's cricinfo profile (2nd para) where he mentions Gregory having a long run of 20 yards. Which doesn't seem long today but may have been then. I think Hall's was longer still.

I'm not sure Gregory's was exceptionally long even then, I just counted it off that video and got 12 steps (Larwood's was 14 and I don't think his was considered enormous) confirming my previous count. I just counted Hall at 16 plus three quite big walking strides, and I could swear I've seen him run off longer in the past (I counted 21-2 once, but that may not have been very accurate). Gregory does seem to take very long strides, but I think Hall's significantly longer. Gregory's would have seemed long for anyone in England then though, as there weren't many fast bowlers around post war, and there don't seem to have been many really fast ones just in the period pre-war except for Brearley, who took a very short run, and Knox, who wasn't around very long.

 

[a massive zebra]

I do note that some of these disagree a little from other articles I have seen, mostly posted by AMZ elsewhere.

I believe you are referring to this post.

 

[AndrewB]

Here's the relevant paragraph from "Between Wickets" (I assume the 1958 edition: the figures he gives for Trevor Bailey at one point are up to the start of the 1957 season in England):

"An attempt to grade fast bowlers in order of speed is likely to produce more disagreements than those tennis ranking lists in which players are told off by numbers. I would place the main speedmen who have bowled for and against Australia since World War I in these groups:

1. F. Tyson, H. Larwood (England); E. McCormick (Australia)
2. K.Miller, R. Lindwall, E. McDonald, J. Gregory (Australia); N. Adcock (South Africa)
3. B. Statham, F. Trueman, K. Farnes, G.O. Allen, M. Nichols, A. Gilligan (England); H. Alexander, L. Nash, T. Wall (Australia); L. Constantine, H. Griffith, G. Francis, F. King (West Indies); P. Heine. C. McCarthy, R. Crisp, A. Bell (South Africa).
Left-arm. W. Voce, E.W. Clark (England); J. Meckiff, A. Davidson, W. Johnston (Australia)."

The "J, Meckiff" is the book's typo, not mine :-)

 

[Starfighter]

Thank you very much. I wonder why he decided to abandon the five categories, as I'm pretty sure that guys like Farnes and Constantine were known for being considerably faster at times than, say Gilligan or Bell (who is sometimes called a medium pacer in Wisden). Looks like he also abandoned Hitch, Howell, Durston, Bowes, and Thurlow.

 

[AndrewB]

It's curious that Bowes isn't in the list because he describes Bowes's bowling later in the chapter.

Just grouping all the lefties as "left-arm" also wasn't very helpful of Robinson.

 

[the big bambino]

Here's the relevant paragraph from "Between Wickets" (I assume the 1958 edition: the figures he gives for Trevor Bailey at one point are up to the start of the 1957 season in England):

"An attempt to grade fast bowlers in order of speed is likely to produce more disagreements than those tennis ranking lists in which players are told off by numbers. I would place the main speedmen who have bowled for and against Australia since World War I in these groups:

1. F. Tyson, H. Larwood (England); E. McCormick (Australia)
2. K.Miller, R. Lindwall, E. McDonald, J. Gregory (Australia); N. Adcock (South Africa)
3. B. Statham, F. Trueman, K. Farnes, G.O. Allen, M. Nichols, A. Gilligan (England); H. Alexander, L. Nash, T. Wall (Australia); L. Constantine, H. Griffith, G. Francis, F. King (West Indies); P. Heine. C. McCarthy, R. Crisp, A. Bell (South Africa).
Left-arm. W. Voce, E.W. Clark (England); J. Meckiff, A. Davidson, W. Johnston (Australia)."

The "J, Meckiff" is the book's typo, not mine :-)

It wold also be helpful if he didn't argue against himself. Judging speed is subjective but both lists link up some unlikely bedfellows and I wonder what McCormick did between lists to jump from no.3 to no.1?!

 

[a massive zebra]

It's Bowes. The non-energetic run up and languid action with the front arm sort of just flopping over are quite distinctive to him. You sort of get used to seeing it from miles away when you've seen enough of him. Here's Copson from a similar distance, a very short run with a big sidestep and distinct flick.

I always wonder how fast Bowes actually was. He was known for sending down a lot of bouncers when the mood took him yet he really does not look remotely quick.

Len Hutton clearly agreed with you.

 

[the big bambino]

Nice find. In recalling Bowes, Hutton noted a similarity in method to Hadlee. If comparisons can be made across eras I imagine Bowes as being a mixture of Anderson and Broad.