Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
I think everyone here can attest to the fact that I make most of my decisions on rating players more about eye test and style than stats.
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Sachin Tendulkar vs Matthew Hayden
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
OverratedSanity
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I acknowledged it in my post. I still don't think it's a great argument because he didn't stand out even amongst openers imo. I'd personally rank Boycott, Graeme Smith clearly ahead of him among post 70s openers and maybe sehwag (but that's much closer). His home conditions weren't particularly difficult for openers (like England or SA) and he had a very mediocre away record.
This just isn't a serious comparison in any way. All attempts at playing devils advocate here are dumb.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
You can say "looks better in black and white", you know...
BazBall21
International Captain
Hayden for all his issues is probably the best of the 2000s openers tbh. Sehwag is too bad outside Asia. Cook wasn't great either against pace bowling and lacks the destructive upsides. Smith gets too much of a free ride for averaging 34 at home against competitive attacks. Langer was the best of the lot against pace but has a very average record in Asia.
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The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Adjusted how?
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I don't think anybody is really treating it as one, are they?
BazBall21
International Captain
Relative to the batting averages of the top sevens across the games in question. Obviously not perfect but does say something about the conditions.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Thank you - I realise my question came across as quite abrupt and demanding there!
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
What are their adjusted home averages tho?
Socerer 01
International Captain
dont you know away matches are the only thing that matter here at cricketweb
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
How are we just comparing output from openers and middle order batsmen as if the former isn't greatly disadvantaged?
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
I thought it was only matches inside or outside of Asia, depending on whether the player is Asian or not.
BazBall21
International Captain
Adjusted overall
Graeme Smith 45.05
Alastair Cook 43.71
Virender Sehwag 41.91
I'll check Hayden later.
BazBall21
International Captain
Definitely what I was implying after I said the guy in 3rd is probably the best
All right, more informative posts now. Feel free to chip in but here is my list of top 20 test batsman in last 50 years:-
Top 4 - S Smith, Tendulkar, Lara, Viv
5-10 - Gavaskar, Chappell, Ponting, Kallis, Sangakkara, Gilchrist
11-15 - Root, Border, Dravid, Miandad, S Waugh
16-20 - kohli, Lloyd, Greenidge, Smith, de Villiers
Honourable mentions( close ones):
21-30 - Hayden, Sehwag, M Crowe, Shiv Chanderpaul, Younis, Cook, Amla, Clarke, KP, Inzamam,Williamson
Top 4 - S Smith, Tendulkar, Lara, Viv
5-10 - Gavaskar, Chappell, Ponting, Kallis, Sangakkara, Gilchrist
11-15 - Root, Border, Dravid, Miandad, S Waugh
16-20 - kohli, Lloyd, Greenidge, Smith, de Villiers
Honourable mentions( close ones):
21-30 - Hayden, Sehwag, M Crowe, Shiv Chanderpaul, Younis, Cook, Amla, Clarke, KP, Inzamam,Williamson
Socerer 01
International Captain
the former isn't massively disadvantaged if they happen to be in the flattest era ever while playing for the best team ever in 1 of the best places to bat ever and yes 2 of these 3 do apply to a part of Tendulkar too but he at least has a resume in the 90s worthy of being exempted
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
According to the ICC, who have famously never been wrong about anything, Hayden achieved a peak batting rating of 935, making him one of the top 15 highest rated batsmen in Test history.
Tendulkar never even got to 900 points, and is only the 34th highest rated player ever.
You can see why @OverratedSanity is so correct to call this a joke comparison that shouldn't be taken seriously. It's not even close.
Tendulkar never even got to 900 points, and is only the 34th highest rated player ever.
You can see why @OverratedSanity is so correct to call this a joke comparison that shouldn't be taken seriously. It's not even close.
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
Your second point is noted, but doesn't make up for periods of under-performance from Sachin.
The first point, I think conditions are always more difficult in the modern era for an opener facing the new ball first up at the start of an innings, against fresh bowlers. The extent of the effect might vary, but it is always there.
I don't want to make a chicken vs egg analysis for this, but I do wonder, how common is it for specialist opening batsmen to transfer to the middle order once they establish themselves as consistent run-getters? Generally I think batsmen who are relatively productive at a position stay at that position ( exception being good 3s dropping to 4 more often ). But still there seems to be some level of actual skillset specialization that an opener has. And we're not very commonly seeing non-specialists (all-rounders, WK bats) come in to fulfill that specialized role of opening, so I'm led to believe there should be value of a different nature in both opening and middle order batting, even if one position tends to score more than the other.
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
He's not in here, but Andy Flower doesn't need to be ignored like that.