Ravindra Jadeja vs Anil Kumble

[subshakerz]

The difference in roles and overall impact is enough for me to rate Jadeja over Kumble. This is like saying Waqar is worse than Walsh largely because he didn't play as long (and that's between bowlers not an allrounder vs a bowler as is the case here). Your biased standards for rating players rarely makes sense, so I don't see why you want to pretend to have some sort of accuracy in this area.

No, it's not. 67 games is very small by current standards, especially if most are at home. You need near 100 tests in this era for a bat or spinner to make some serious claim to greatness.

Waqar still played 20 games longer than Jadeja and by fast bowler standards of 80s and 90s his career length and size were standard.

 

[Prince EWS]

By career end, Kohli, Ashwin, Root, Rabada will be greats. Anderson already is, Stokes is a likely.

Smith is an ATG and Cummins will likely be one by career end.

Conway is gonna play until he's 55 IMO.

 

[ataraxia]

Conway is gonna play until he's 55 IMO.

Yeah but as subshakerz is saying he needs to play 100 tests. Averaging 70 after 70 tests at the age of 55 simply isn't good enough.

 

[Xix2565]

No, it's not. 67 games is very small by current standards, especially if most are at home. You need near 100 tests in this era for a bat or spinner to make some serious claim to greatness.

Waqar still played 20 games longer than Jadeja and by fast bowler standards of 80s and 90s his career length and size were standard.

This is meaningless because your standards aren't the same as mine. So why should I follow them?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kohli, Ashwin, Root, Rabada, Anderson either already are or will be greats by career end, Stokes is a likely too.

Smith is an ATG and Cummins will likely be one by career end.

Do you consider Sehwag and Hayden greats? Jadeja probably isn’t far off them although he needs to play another 30-40 tests.

 

[subshakerz]

Do you consider Sehwag and Hayden greats? Jadeja probably isn’t far off them although he needs to play another 30-40 tests.

Yup Sehwag and Hayden are greats.

My point is Jadeja just needs to play at the same standards for that 30-40 tests with more showing in away games and he will be a great and I wouldn't begrudge him ahead of Kumble.

 

[subshakerz]

This is meaningless because your standards aren't the same as mine. So why should I follow them?

I consider your standards way too loose but let's disagree.

Surely you can see some merit in my being cautious based on his test sample compared to other greats we are considering. No need to dismiss the point.

 

[Xix2565]

I consider your standards way too loose but let's disagree.

Surely you can see some merit in my being cautious based on his test sample compared to other greats we are considering. No need to dismiss the point.

Cautious implies this evaluation being dangerous in some way. Don't dress up bullshit please, it's just a rating online. And I see no merit in it because the standards you use are far too exclusionary and biased towards certain types of players based on your preference rather than any semblance of logical thought.

 

[subshakerz]

Cautious implies this evaluation being dangerous in some way. Don't dress up bull**** please, it's just a rating online. And I see no merit in it because the standards you use are far too exclusionary and biased towards certain types of players based on your preference rather than any semblance of logical thought.

Players with sufficiently long careers?

You don't get why 67 tests isn't that much by modern standards? Heck it's much less than even the 80s all-rounders.

 

[_00_deathscar]

There are multiple folks here who don't think the same. So, let's not be delusional.

Don't make up statements which I didn't said now since you are not able to respond to the fact that why the rank turners beneficiaries have leaked same runs per match overseas as Kumble but ended with lesser wickets?

Kumble matches 35, Wkts 140, AVG 37
Ashwin matches 24, Wkts 70, AVG 40
Jadeja matches 20, Wkts 52, AVG 37

I do think they are comparable to Kumble as cricketer but Kumble has done it for almost two decades as standout spinner while Jadeja with 60 odd tests still has some way to go. I even said in one of my posts that as cricketer, Ashwin probably edges Kumble due to his added batting but Jadeja still has some way because he has not played and contributed as much yet.

The averages are good thanks to both the bowlers competing for a spot overseas and hence gets to play more home matches and miss out away ones. Let him play a bit more and he will have more overseas performances and then we can start putting him in the bracket which is higher than kumble. At the moment, they are more remembered for their home exploits.

So let’s get this straight.

Kumble was a better bowler overseas, but won **** all.
He also wasn’t a worse bowler than Ashwin/Jadeja at home, but also won **** all.

And the reason he wasn’t a worse bowler at home than Ashwin/Jadeja is because spinning tracks that are impossible to bat on, the same tracks where since late 2010s even the likes of Kohli have struggled, where Jadeja averages 45 while batting — and where Jadeja has been crucial.

It is also worth nothing Jadeja’s better overall away record

Also, the poll result suggests a vast majority of Indians who saw both play consider Jadeja the better cricketer despite less wickets, less matches and apparently a worse SENA record.

I think some of you lot are seriously underestimating just how how much of a beast Jadeja is at home, where players play roughly half their games.
You’re also overrating Kumble just because he had that long a career, which was good but it was so full of flaws.
No one is taking Jadeja, even as a cricket package, over Warne and Murali or players of that calibre.
But Kumble wasn’t anywhere near that level. In fact he was at about the level Jadeja is at as a bowler, arguably slightly better, but Jadeja’s overall package more than makes that up.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

So let’s get this straight.

Kumble was a better bowler overseas, but won **** all.
He also wasn’t a worse bowler than Ashwin/Jadeja at home, but also won **** all.

And the reason he wasn’t a worse bowler at home than Ashwin/Jadeja is because spinning tracks that are impossible to bat on, the same tracks where since late 2010s even the likes of Kohli have struggled, where Jadeja averages 45 while batting — and where Jadeja has been crucial.

It is also worth nothing Jadeja’s better overall away record

Also, the poll result suggests a vast majority of Indians who saw both play consider Jadeja the better cricketer despite less wickets, less matches and apparently a worse SENA record.

I think some of you lot are seriously underestimating just how how much of a beast Jadeja is at home, where players play roughly half their games.
You’re also overrating Kumble just because he had that long a career, which was good but it was so full of flaws.
No one is taking Jadeja, even as a cricket package, over Warne and Murali or players of that calibre.
But Kumble wasn’t anywhere near that level. In fact he was at about the level Jadeja is at as a bowler, arguably slightly better, but Jadeja’s overall package more than makes that up.

Jadeja at home is basically Imran Khan

 

[OverratedSanity]

He also wasn’t a worse bowler than Ashwin/Jadeja at home, but also won **** all.

You dont need to say something stupid just because he said something stupid too.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Kohli, Ashwin, Root, Rabada, Anderson either already are or will be greats by career end, Stokes is a likely too.

Smith is an ATG and Cummins will likely be one by career end.

See I don’t entirely disagree with that list, but don’t think Jadeja is much worse if at all than Stokes as an all rounder. They’re two sides of the same coin - one is a much better bat, the other a much better bowler. Agree that he has played more matches - that’s a consequence of a mixture of things like injuries and the Indian selection team being dumb as a rock.

Also no Shakib?

 

[subshakerz]

In fact he was at about the level Jadeja is at as a bowler, arguably slightly better, but Jadeja’s overall package more than makes that up.

Nobody questions that Jadeja is a beast at home.

Here is what is the essence of the debate:

- The difference in quality between Kumble and Jadeja as bowlers, with the Jadeja side not considering Kumble being more impactful away and having sheer longevity

- Whether Jadeja has done enough even with his all-round package, with the Jadeja side willing to say he already has based on a short career, compared to Kumble who played twice as long, that has not yet finished

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Shakib and Kane both missing from subs list. Babar and Bumrah could get there too.

 

[subshakerz]

See I don’t entirely disagree with that list, but don’t think Jadeja is much worse if at all than Stokes as an all rounder. They’re two sides of the same coin - one is a much better bat, the other a much better bowler. Agree that he has played more matches - that’s a consequence of a mixture of things like injuries and the Indian selection team being dumb as a rock.

Also no Shakib?

Forgot Shakib and Kane. Maybe Lyon. Babar and Shaheen are still a bit early to mark as clear greats.

Like I said, Jadeja is on his way to being a great but 67 tests isn't nearly enough. Lyon and Ashwin are around the 100 test mark. I am surprised this is getting so much pushback.

 

[_00_deathscar]

You dont need to say something stupid just because he said something stupid too.

You know what I mean - he can’t have it both ways…if Kumble is the equal of Jadeja/Ashwin at home, with the support of the amazing Harbhajan, why did they win so few matches at home (relatively speaking)? They certainly weren’t whitewashing nearly every side before them.

 

[_00_deathscar]

- Whether Jadeja has done enough even with his all-round package, with the Jadeja side willing to say he already has based on a short career, compared to Kumble who played twice as long, that has not yet finished

The counter argument to that, which I keep bringing up, is that those who watched plenty of both generally rate Jadeja the better cricketer. This is largely a crowd brought up on some level of 90s nostalgia. That should tell you something…
Kumble just wasn’t of the requisite level where his bowling is that much better than the overall Jadeja package, especially if you have a helpful pace attack (which even the Indian ATG team now does).

 

[Prince EWS]

If someone asks you what someone accomplished and your answer is 'the team he was playing in won matches', then that is indeed a stupid answer.

The correct response to this is to call it for being ****ing stupid, not to then say it also applies to other players, and continue on with the absolutely nonsense merit. OS is right.

 

[subshakerz]

You know what I mean - he can’t have it both ways…if Kumble is the equal of Jadeja/Ashwin at home, with the support of the amazing Harbhajan, why did they win so few matches at home (relatively speaking)? They certainly weren’t whitewashing nearly every side before them.

They faced better teams and on flatter pitches, that is why.

Kumble in the 90s when pitches were more sporting but not even 2010s level of spiciness had figures comparable to Jadeja and India never lost a series that decade because of him.