Rate these almost-great fast bowlers

[subshakerz]

This thread focuses on those fast bowlers who I classify as world class. Unlike great players (who are among the best their country ever produced based on their record) and all-time great players (who you would consider worthy of shortlist for selection in an all-time XI), I define world class players as those who are among the best of their time but for whatever reason didnt have a long enough career to justify as a great/all-time great.

So based on a rating out of ten on how good they were and how good you speculate they would have ended up had they had a full career, what do you rate the following:

West Indies:
- Colin Croft
- Ian Bishop

Australia:
- Bruce Reid
- Stuart Clark
- Ryan Harris

Pakistan:
- Shoaib Akthar
- Mohammad Asif

New Zealand:
- Shane Bond

South Africa:
- Fanie Devilliers
- Kyle Abbott
- Mike Proctor

England:
- Simon Jones

 

[Line and Length]

All those you have named are definitely in the "world class" category and, but for various factors, could have enjoyed substantially longer careers and greater fame.
Of those whose careers were curtailed by injury alone (Bishop, the Australian trio, Bond, deVilliers and Jones) I would rate Ian Bishop the highest but that judgement might be coloured by the fact that he played more tests than the others.
If a score out of 10 was to be given I would allocate Bishop a 9 ahead of Bond, Reid, Clarke and Harris all 8. Jones was probably the most cruelly affected by injuries and I would score him 7 and de Villiers the same score.
Of the remaining bowlers Akthar must rate highly despite the controversies and bans. I'd score him a 9.
Croft was unlucky to be in an era where Roberts, Holding and Garner were so dominant. He was a fearsome bowler but could be a loose-cannon at times. On ability alone he warrants 8.
Abbott effectively ended his international career when he became ineligible to play for South Africa after signing a deal with Hampshire. He had obvious ability but such a move raises a question mark about his attitude towards representing his country so I give him only 6.
Asif has huge question marks hanging over him with bans and controversies. However, his performances warrant at least a 7.
Finally Proctor. The apartheid ban ruled him out for most of his career but 7 tests, all against Australia, and 41 wickets @ 15.02 must surely rank him higher than just "world class". He is, IMO, a "great" and in this company is the only 10.

 

[hendrix]

Although Bond certainly had his issues with injury, the most substantial period in his prime was cut when the BCCI ensured that he would be banned from cricket for joining the ICL - despite having written authority to do so from his own cricket board.

 

[stephen]

Perhaps you should check out the fast bowler survival thread http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/81897-fast-bowler-survival-2020-edition.html

In that thread you'll see most of the names you've mentioned rated by a democratic process.

 

[Line and Length]

Although Bond certainly had his issues with injury, the most substantial period in his prime was cut when the BCCI ensured that he would be banned from cricket for joining the ICL - despite having written authority to do so from his own cricket board.

I hadn't taken that into account. Judging by this plus the rating on the list provided by Stephen I may have been a little harsh with my assessment.

 

[stephen]

I hadn't taken that into account. Judging by this plus the rating on the list provided by Stephen I may have been a little harsh with my assessment.

A lot of people rate Bond very highly. Mostly due to watching him in ODIs. He's definitely the second best NZ quick, with Boult, Southee and Wagner being a step down. I think a huge part of his popularity is that he is a kiwi. If he had the career he did for Australia or Pakistan I think he'd be largely forgotten.

 

[trundler]

Talking about Asif still hurts. He was Philander without being crap away.

 

[Gnske]

I have no shame in saying Ryan Harris is a step up from almost-great based alone on what he managed with a knee made of nothing but fluid and broken bits at Cape Town.

 

[subshakerz]

Talking about Asif still hurts. He was Philander without being crap away.

Asif was far more intelligent than Philander, who was pretty one-dimensional. But I think Asif also struggled on roads, he just wasnt as penetrative.

 

[subshakerz]

I have no shame in saying Ryan Harris is a step up from almost-great based alone on what he managed with a knee made of nothing but fluid and broken bits at Cape Town.

I rate Ryan Harris very highly since unlike the others he wasn't dependent on raw pace and was already a good arsenal of cutters, etc.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

So is Chaminda Vaas an almost great or a great?

 

[trundler]

Honourable mention to Brett Schultz

 

[Tom Flint]

So is Chaminda Vaas an almost great or a great?

I think it is asking for bowlers who could have been if their careers weren't cut short for various reasons. Vaas had a full career. To answer your question anyway I would say he was a very good bowler who had a very good career despite playing 3/4 of his games in unhelpful conditions. Saying that if he had been English or south African I still don't think he would have been an atg

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I think it is asking for bowlers who could have been if their careers weren't cut short for various reasons. Vaas had a full career. To answer your question anyway I would say he was a very good bowler who had a very good career despite playing 3/4 of his games in unhelpful conditions. Saying that if he had been English or south African I still don't think he would have been an atg

Ohhh, I missed the OP's essence.

Jermaine Lawson is good shout.
Then chucking.

 

[SteveNZ]

A lot of people rate Bond very highly. Mostly due to watching him in ODIs. He's definitely the second best NZ quick, with Boult, Southee and Wagner being a step down. I think a huge part of his popularity is that he is a kiwi. If he had the career he did for Australia or Pakistan I think he'd be largely forgotten.

You think a guy who bowled 150km/ph and averaged 22 would've been largely forgotten? Not to mention he bowled hooping in-swingers. Look at some of his wickets, in the 2002 series v India (albeit on crazy wickets), some in the Windies 05 series I think it was, he had Lara on toast etc. He was incredible. Absolutely incredible Test bowler.

 

[stephen]

You think a guy who bowled 150km/ph and averaged 22 would've been largely forgotten? Not to mention he bowled hooping in-swingers. Look at some of his wickets, in the 2002 series v India (albeit on crazy wickets), some in the Windies 05 series I think it was, he had Lara on toast etc. He was incredible. Absolutely incredible Test bowler.

I certainly don't think he would be as highly regarded if he wasn't a kiwi. He was an excellent bowler, especially at ODI level (where he managed to string together a decent career) but part of the reason he's so highly regarded is that he's clearly the best since Hadlee.

 

[trundler]

Doesn't check out. Bishop is highly rated because he was supposed to be as good as/better than Ambrose. Bond was clearly special. This is Hilfenhaus logic all over again.

 

[stephen]

Doesn't check out. Bishop is highly rated because he was supposed to be as good as/better than Ambrose. Bond was clearly special. This is Hilfenhaus logic all over again.

Bishop and Harris are excellent comparisons. Statistically similar but are a bit lost amongst the other bowlers their country had fielded. Bond was a lighthouse in the storm of kiwi mediocrity. I'm not denying he was a great bowler but I do think his legacy is enhanced by all the other kiwi bowlers of his day being rather ordinary.

If Bond had have played alongside Hadlee and Boult, would he have been ranked in the top 30 bowlers of all time on here? I'd say probably not.

 

[Flem274*]

bond is an odi great

i take your point somewhat. great bowlers with short careers tend to be recognised as heroes during their era (like ryan harris has been recently) and then a footnote to subsequent generations until an older fan mentions them like how bruce reid is treated now.

his nationality is a double edged sword. jack cowie is probably the #2 new zealand bowler of all time but is forgotten because of his short career that was caused through no fault of his own. being from a media powerhouse can help keep you remembered but also get you lost in the conveyor belt if your country is used to having world class bowlers.

ryan harris makes my test side of this decade and bond makes my test side of the 00s. if they're fit, every side in the world picks them. arguably almost every side in history picks them unless their attack is insane.

 

[stephen]

Totally agree Flem. There are a bunch of these types of bowlers ranked in the 80s or 90s in the fast bowler survival contest. When you look into them they were tearaway quicks who did amazingly at first class level but didn't get a huge amount of tests (for whatever reason) and go largely forgotten by history because of it.

Here on CW We have a better memory for a few of these types of players because we're nerds. But the average young cricket pundit won't have heard of Adcock or Reid or even Colin Croft.