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Rank the 10,000 club

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Yeah that patch made me put Tendulkar over him. Lara's peaks were higher but Tendulkar was a fair bit more consistent, was at his best for around 15 years rather than like 6-7.

If he had actually scored runs during that phase (and given the attacks he had those ATG series against it's hard to understand why he didn't, plus that was the age where most bats are at their prime) then there'd be little question he's the #2 of all-time.
Someone had pointed out this earlier on this forum. I dunno if Lara can be called inconsistent. His case is unique. For first 5 years of his career, when he played some of the best attacks in the game, he was Smith-level in average (60+ average) and consistency. He had at least one 50+ score in 11 or 12 of his first 13 Test matches. If you ignore his debut match against Wasim-Waqar-Imran, where he missed scoring 50 by 6 runs, I think he scored at least one 50 or 100 in each and every Test match for the next dozen or so Test matches. This included Test matches against Australia, against Donald, against W & W at their absolute peak etc. That’s extraordinary consistency.

Very similar Smith-level consistency and performances (60+ average) also came in last 5 years of Lara’s career as well. Having 500+ run series against Australia, South Africa, England, Sri Lanka etc.

It’s the middle 5 years of Lara’s career - exactly 5 years from 1996 Aus series till 2001 Aus series - which become Lara’s bugbear. He was Hooperish level abysmal (stats-wise) during this time, averaging in mid-30s.

Most importantly It wasn’t like he was failing only against great attacks during this time, he failed against ALL attacks during this time. He averaged in low 30s against Sri Lanka & England too during this time, and neither had a really great attack at that time.

Of all the Test series he played during this time, only on a couple of occasions did he have a series average of 50+. That shows how pathetic he was during this time. It was mainly during these 5 years that McGrath got him a huge number of times.

From 2002 onwards, although Lara played 15 or 16 innings against McGrath, McGrath got him just once or twice.

Irony is - Lara’s greatest ever series - came slap-bang in the middle of his lowest 5 years of his career.

Basically Lara had 2 extraordinarily long peaks between an extraordinarily long valley. For whatever reason, most people judge Lara only by the middle part or the failed part of Lara’s career, a part which includes his extraordinary 98-99 Aus series and his several failures. Hence the tag of inconsistent, failure against quality fast bowling etc. Lara’s failure period also almost perfectly overlapped with Tendulkar’s most successful period (albeit against less than great attacks).

Look down deep enough, Lara wasn’t inconsistent. Not even when compared to Tendulkar.

It’s interesting that, at the end of the day, the frequency with which Lara scored 50+ runs in Test cricket was nearly the same as Tendulkar’s. It’s a good measure of how consistent Lara ended up being overall in his career. The frequency with which he got out to McGrath/Donald too in Test cricket is the same as the frequency with which Tendulkar got out to these great bowlers.
 
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ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
I wonder - does Lara suffer in the estimation of people compared to Tendulkar because he's only the second, or perhaps even third best West Indian? He's better than Tendulkar in my estimation. The only thing that elevates Tendulkar is his ridiculous longevity and even that is overrated due to the huge periods of time late in his career that he wasn't contributing.

Now Tendulkar is in the top 10 batsmen of all time, but it's hard to argue he's definitively better than the prince.
Definitively? Who said that? Fact that no one who rated Tendulkar higher objected to Lara being rated higher by others shows no one thinks Tendulkar is "definitively" better.

On longevity, sure go ahead and disregard his last 2.5 years after 2011 world cup. But when you do that you have to discount the negative effect that had on his batting average because you can't have it both ways. So he had a 21+ year career where he averaged 56.94 with 51 test hundreds.

May be also chop off longevity credit from his early years when he was a teen and look at his career from his 20th birthday (Lara debuted at 21) to end of 2011 world cup. He had a 18 year career averaging 58.79 with 46 hundreds. Still played from time he was younger than Lara at debut to about same age as Lara at retirement. Lara averaged 52.88 with 34 hundreds. This is not arbitrary slicing, it does include Tendulkar's slump for ~5 years in mid 2000s.

Of course you don't need to do all this, see their careers in their entirety and give due longevity credit. But you can't have it both ways.

And of course there are many valid reasons to rate Lara higher and no one contests those (e.g. Lara's best was much better than Tendulkar's best).
 
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trundler

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Also, mid-way through his career in the early 00s, he was getting picked at #4 ahead of guys like Lara and Chappell in ATXIs. Both Benaud and Bradman took him and said something to the effect of he's a level above. Now I'm not making an appeal to authority here by saying we should listen to pundits every time. All I'm saying is that people don't just chance across the run scoring chart in 2012 and think Tendulkar's the best because he's at the top. Ankit already mentioned how his stats go up if you ignore the patches where he was a literal child or a geriatric. Tendulkar was leading the pack by some distance in the late 90s and if he'd retired because of tennis elbow he'd still be rated as highly.
 

Flem274*

123/5
i sat down to do this and then i realised the midpack is too hard to separate and i don't care because it doesn't matter
 

OverratedSanity

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Also, mid-way through his career in the early 00s, he was getting picked at #4 ahead of guys like Lara and Chappell in ATXIs. Both Benaud and Bradman took him and said something to the effect of he's a level above. Now I'm not making an appeal to authority here by saying we should listen to pundits every time. All I'm saying is that people don't just chance across the run scoring chart in 2012 and think Tendulkar's the best because he's at the top. Ankit already mentioned how his stats go up if you ignore the patches where he was a literal child or a geriatric. Tendulkar was leading the pack by some distance in the late 90s and if he'd retired because of tennis elbow he'd still be rated as highly.
Some people would rate him higher if he'd retired in 2002/03 with an average of 59 instead of scoring another 6000 runs at 50 on top of that. The stupidity of it boggles the mind.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Some people would rate him higher if he'd retired in 2002/03 with an average of 59 instead of scoring another 6000 runs at 50 on top of that. The stupidity of it boggles the mind.
Not only does he get rated lower because of that, apparently it also somehow translates to his longevity being the only thing which makes him a great.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
Not only does he get rated lower because of that, apparently it also somehow translates to his longevity being the only thing which makes him a great.
These kind of generalizations go both ways. Most people who rate Tendulkar higher call Lara inconsistent, failure against quality fast bowling etc. although he really wasn't (at least not much more than Tendulkar was).
 

trundler

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These kind of generalizations go both ways. Most people who rate Tendulkar higher call Lara inconsistent, failure against quality fast bowling etc. although he really wasn't (at least not much more than Tendulkar was).
That doesn't happen nearly as much here but the Sachin was merely good for a long time myth continues to persist for some reason. It's just simply not true.
 

pardus

School Boy/Girl Captain
That doesn't happen nearly as much here but the Sachin was merely good for a long time myth continues to persist for some reason. It's just simply not true.
Right in this thread, there are posts about Lara's inconsistency and his failures against quality fast bowling. To me, they are no less stupid than crediting Tendulkar only for his longevity. People tend to make generalizations about players they are not truly interested in. Happens all the time. Tendulkar isn't the only victim of that.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Citing Lara's inconsistency is not equivalently stupid ffs. He averaged less than 40 for a period of 5 years when he should have been in his prime.
 

Flem274*

123/5
never saw either score runs. FLOPdulkar may have scored some being a home track bully or on the 2008 motorways. i don't remember tbh, but i want to throw petrol on the fire im not going to read.
 

Daemon

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Kallis underrated on here imo. A few holes and not as many memorable innings, but ****ing incredible bat especially towards the end of his career.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, it's difficult to rank those who become better with age - Sanga, Younis, Kallis (to a lesser extent)
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Ricky Ponting
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara
Sunil Gavaskar
Rahul Dravid
Steve Waugh
Allan Border
Younis Khan
Alastair Cook
Mahela Jayawardene
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
 

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