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*Official* West Indies Tour of England 2020

Howe_zat

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runs being worth more at seven than at six is a weird one
I think marc was responding to the claim that 'Dowrich outperforms most contempories as a 7'.

Dowrich 7 - Holder 8 is actually very strong but it's more likely to be Dowrich 6 - Holder 7 which is a bit shakier.
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
I think marc was responding to the claim that 'Dowrich outperforms most contempories as a 7'.

Dowrich 7 - Holder 8 is actually very strong but it's more likely to be Dowrich 6 - Holder 7 which is a bit shakier.
Yeah okay that's fair I didn't read the quoted post very well.
 

trundler

Hall of Fame Member
i think that JOJOXI's bang on with regard to kraigg here that even an average of 30 striking at the rate he does would be awesome for that team, and just to get to 35ish striking at what he does would see him eat up a hundred balls on average which for that team is huge tbh. the windies are a young team on the rise but have a lot of boom-bust guys in the middle order (though there's more grit in that team than most think), the guys such as blackwood and hetmeyer et al who are very flamboyant but still very raw (though blackwood has test experience). the point i'm getting at is that can be on bad days quite a collapse prone sort of middle order; a guy that eats up 90-100 balls at the start of the innings and gets the team off to a start means those guys can come in and play their natural game with more freedom and really lets them thrive and be themselves, and helps to put a stopper on the collapses that were plaguing the windies during the darker era in the earlier part of the decade.

one of the huge reasons why the windies have been slowly getting more and more competitive (as shown by their most recent couple of series against the poms), aside from the bowling, has a lot to do with how their batting has really starched up in the long form and been able to grind teams away and a kraigg at the top in form can go a long way to achieving that
It is the early part of the decade now though :ph34r:
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I hope the tour goes ahead and we get to see a good competitive series. I do think Roach and Holder will do a great job. Everything depends on how well Hope can hold the batting together.
 

JOJOXI

U19 Debutant
Interesting point about Dowrich but the majority of the reason for the average of 40 is his batting at 6 significantly bringing things up. At 7 he averages 32, and the one innings of substance in that time (which brings that average up from the low 20s) came under a distinct lack of pressure bearing in mind the match situation when he came in.

Amongst people with a reasonable number of innings at 7, he’s behind de Kock, Pant, Sarfraz Ahmed and Paine and not much ahead of de Grandhomme, Pandya, Buttler and Dickwella which probably gives an indication as to why people wouldn’t immediately think of him when discussing the team’s top batsmen?
Fair point, I was using his overall average over the time period but point taken his contributions looking more closely seem to be more impressive at number 6 then number 7. But even so I'd argue most would put Dickwella and definetly Buttler far above Dowrich in a ranking of Test batsman. But my presumption that he probably did better than the majority of his contemporaries at 7 was overstretching I can see.

But I do still think he should be in the discussion for the team's top batsman. His hundred v England at 7 came with West Indies 61/5, effectively 273/5 a dominant position but I'd argue given England had got 5 wickets for 9 runs to reduce West Indies from 52/0 to 61/5 had West Indies got bowled out for say 100/120 England might have fancied a good crack at a 4th innings chase. Additionally, his overall record since the start of 2018 - average 40 is bettered by only by Jason Holder who's highest score came in the same innings and at a time when Hetmyer and Dowrich had alieviated the threat of total collapse. Aside from Holder and Dowrich only 3 other West Indian batsman average over 30 in that timespan. Blackwood (38 average from 1 innings), Brooks (34.8 average from 5 innings) and Hetmyer (31 average from 20 innings).

Other notable West Indies batsman over that time spell
Campbell (29.80 average from 12 innings)
Chase (24.23 average from 27 innnings)
Brathwaite (21.33 average from 29 innings)
Hope (20.08 average from 26 innings)

Brathwaite and Campbell do have to front up against the new ball which will hurt their average. Hope has played quite a few innings at 3 too although averages worse then the 2 openers too but over the last couple years its hard to argue they've been better then Dowrich in the Test format - Brathwaite and Chase have at least had somewhat decent if unspectacular Test careers to support their argument not so much for Hope. Who would you say the West Indies best Test batsman is out of interest?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Brathwaite and Campbell do have to front up against the new ball which will hurt their average. Hope has played quite a few innings at 3 too although averages worse then the 2 openers too but over the last couple years its hard to argue they've been better then Dowrich in the Test format - Brathwaite and Chase have at least had somewhat decent if unspectacular Test careers to support their argument not so much for Hope. Who would you say the West Indies best Test batsman is out of interest?
It's a tricky one, they lack a reliable player who you can bank on to get a score every game (where England have Root and Stokes who I think you can bank on doing that) but in every game I'd expect one or two of them to get in and some sort of score - just different players each time.
 

Beamer

International Debutant
Rakheem is a really good number 8 tbh. He averages 40 in List A cricket, 20 odd in FC cricket. He can score fairly big and in quick time. His problem with the bat is consistency. I think having him at 8 or 9 depending on the balance will make for a strong lower order.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rakheem is a really good number 8 tbh. He averages 40 in List A cricket, 20 odd in FC cricket. He can score fairly big and in quick time. His problem with the bat is consistency. I think having him at 8 or 9 depending on the balance will make for a strong lower order.
20 odd FC average doesn't scream really good number 8 to me to be honest.

Dowrich, Holder, Cornwall at 6, 7, 8 would feel to me like a relative weakness with all of them batting higher than they ought to.

Especially given that the top order isn't overly strong, you'd surely pick an extra batsman (assuming Chase is in there as the 5th bowler anyway) and have those 3 at 7, 8, 9 which feels solid?
 

Howe_zat

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20 odd FC average doesn't scream really good number 8 to me to be honest.

Dowrich, Holder, Cornwall at 6, 7, 8 would feel to me like a relative weakness with all of them batting higher than they ought to.

Especially given that the top order isn't overly strong, you'd surely pick an extra batsman (assuming Chase is in there as the 5th bowler anyway) and have those 3 at 7, 8, 9 which feels solid?
West Indian first class cricket is notoriously low scoring so you pretty much have to add about 10 runs per wicket for the batsmen and bowlers to compare.
 

Beamer

International Debutant
West Indian first class cricket is notoriously low scoring so you pretty much have to add about 10 runs per wicket for the batsmen and bowlers to compare.
I think Rakheem is potentially a proper batsman and a good number 8 at test level. I've seen enough of him and others to know that. Jason Holder really should take more responsibility and bat at 7 also in my opinion. Our strength is our attack and we should not weaken it when it is our best chance of winning tests. Our batting is weak anyway, they just need to take responsibility and put more runs on the board. I am dead against weakening the bowling to put another mediocre batsman in to create a false sense of depth.

Lets bowl England out cheaply with a strong test match attack, which we are more than capable of doing, and then find a way to score runs with what we've got in place.

Braithwaite
Campbell
Brooks
Hope
Chase
Dowrich (wk)
Holder (c)
Cornwall
Roach (new ball)
Joseph (new ball)
Holder
 

Beamer

International Debutant
If I have the fire, I will unleash it.
It means no holds barred. Unleash the Chemar.
It's a good time to be a young Windes pace bowler. You've got loads of guidance around you and less stress on performing straight away when you have Roach, Holder and Gabriel around to do much of the work.

By the same token though, out batsmen have no world class guidance in tests at all, just mediocrity after mediocrity.
 

SillyCowCorner1

International Coach
It's a good time to be a young Windes pace bowler. You've got loads of guidance around you and less stress on performing straight away when you have Roach, Holder and Gabriel around to do much of the work.

By the same token though, out batsmen have no world class guidance in tests at all, just mediocrity after mediocrity.
Lots of promising pacers in the region. Preston McSween is a guy to look out for.
 

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