*Official* West Indies Tour of England 2020

[wpdavid]

Apologies if this has already been discussed to death while I was away, but what do people make of the new Botham/Richards trophy? Richards I get, but Botham was a non-event against the WI. No idea what I would call instead.

 

[StephenZA]

Apologies if this has already been discussed to death while I was away, but what do people make of the new Botham/Richards trophy? Richards I get, but Botham was a non-event against the WI. No idea what I would call instead.

Probably because Botham does not actually have a trophy named after him? Needed something for his contributions. Not gonna be renaming the Ashes any time soon.

 

[Howe_zat]

Those are just the ex cricketers from the two nations that most people have heard of.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Obviously Pietersen-gate didn't help team morale much but the 2010-11 team just got deservedly displaced by a superior SA team. They took over the ranking by beating us emphatically in 2011 and held it for a year, but I think SA were always the best team of that 2008-2014 era overall.

2005-06 team was unlucky that they had to replace Trescothick so soon, Jones was made of glass, Flintoff was never the same after he overbowled himself in 2006, Vaughan was on the way out with his injuries as well. Plus they had to compete with an Aussie team full of aging ATGs, determined to avenge 2005.

I don't think SA were the best for the whole period, but definitely once Philander debuted and they started bowling teams out for sub 100 scores regularly.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah, all true but I'm just not persuaded. I'm trying to remember what the other trophies involving England are called. SA is D'Oliveira isn't it? I think that makes sense, but I don't know what Saffers make of it. I honestly can't remember the others.

 

[StephenZA]

Yeah, all true but I'm just not persuaded. I'm trying to remember what the other trophies involving England are called. SA is D'Oliveira isn't it? I think that makes sense, but I don't know what Saffers make of it. I honestly can't remember the others.

Yes it is the Basil D'Oliveira Trophy, but I generally don't really know or care what the name of the trophy is... and there is not enough SA cricket 'fans' that realise that a trophy is even played for.

 

[honestbharani]

They can simply play for the Viv Richards Trophy

 

[Howe_zat]

I don't think SA were the best for the whole period, but definitely once Philander debuted and they started bowling teams out for sub 100 scores regularly.

Also once ABDV stopped ****ing around and actually became a world class player around 2012.

The RSA team of 2012-15 is one of the best sides ever, but they were annoyingly overrated for a few years before that when they were good on paper but didn’t win hardly any Test series.

 

[harsh.ag]

Plus their friendship in county cricket

 

[wpdavid]

A bit of research suggests that England play India for the Pataudi Trophy but we don't have a trophy for Pakistan, SL, NZ or Bangladesh.
SA play WI for the Vivian Richards Trophy, so Viv's definitely getting too much attention. WI have produced some other decent players too.
WI play SL for the Sobers/Tissera trophy.
Australia vs WI and Australia vs NZ have trophies don't they? I think that's it.

 

[Howe_zat]

Yeah, all true but I'm just not persuaded. I'm trying to remember what the other trophies involving England are called. SA is D'Oliveira isn't it? I think that makes sense, but I don't know what Saffers make of it. I honestly can't remember the others.

I was about to write that England-India is the Pataudi trophy, but looking it up, that’s only true when they play in England and it’s the Anthony de Mello trophy in India.

There’s not actually that many with names, England only have four named trophies they play for out of nine test series opponents (eleven?), which is middling by other countries’ standards.

 

[StephenZA]

Also once ABDV stopped ****ing around and actually became a world class player around 2012.

The RSA team of 2012-15 is one of the best sides ever, but they were annoyingly overrated for a few years before that when they were good on paper but didn’t win hardly any Test series.

The best team mantra did not necessarily make them a great team. With Aus dropping away and Eng not quite doing everything right, SA drifted to the top. But did not look a not a complete great team until that English tour in 2012 when ABdV took over the keeping. Even then was still a class batsmen light and also still struggled with a spin bowling option.

 

[StephenZA]

A bit of research suggests that England play India for the Pataudi Trophy but we don't have a trophy for Pakistan, SL, NZ or Bangladesh.
SA play WI for the Vivian Richards Trophy, so Viv's definitely getting too much attention. WI have produced some other decent players too.
WI play SL for the Sobers/Tissera trophy.
Australia vs WI and Australia vs NZ have trophies don't they? I think that's it.

Is that possible?

 

[Howe_zat]

Australia vs WI and Australia vs NZ have trophies don't they? I think that's it.

Frank Worrel and Trans-Tasman trophies respectively.

New Zealand only have a named trophy for that fixture, which perhaps impedes their performance as it’s the one trophy they can’t win.

Pakistan the side with no trophies to play for as far as I can find.

there’s a list here:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_cricket

 

[wpdavid]

I was about to write that England-India is the Pataudi trophy, but looking it up, that’s only true when they play in England and it’s the Anthony de Mello trophy in India.

There’s not actually that many with names, England only have four named trophies they play for out of nine test series opponents (eleven?), which is middling by other countries’ standards.

I hadn't realised that about England/India series. And I had no idea at all who Anthony de Mello was until looking him up. I quite like the fact that India have named a cricket series after a priest/psychotherapist.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Lord Botham is a brand these days. Presumably it would be un-PC to name it after one player only these days, so Botham is really the only choice along side Richards.
Although his record isn’t good he did hit the winning runs in his last Test against the Windies when Ramps got out with the scores level.

 

[wpdavid]

If pushed, I'd have gone for Gooch and Richards, although I don't really like Viv having two trophies named after him.

Richards was being interviewed about this the other day and asked to talk about his memories of Botham. Diplomatically, he talked about Somerset rather than England.

 

[Line and Length]

The naming of the Botham/Richards Trophy has deeper connections than them being on-field rivals in Test matches. Ian and Viv, along with Joel Garner, were team-mates at Somerset and Botham resigned from Somerset when the two West Indians were axed. I have a feeling that Peter Rebuck might have been involved in the sackings. Anyhow, a bond was established between the two men and the naming of the trophy is, in my opinion, quite appropriate.

 

[Howe_zat]

It might have been a nice touch to name it after Everton Weekes, but it was probably de-facto named by committee months ago.

If it were up to me I would have just kept the Wisden though, because I like very old trophies.

 

[wpdavid]

The naming of the Botham/Richards Trophy has deeper connections than them being on-field rivals in Test matches. Ian and Viv, along with Joel Garner, were team-mates at Somerset and Botham resigned from Somerset when the two West Indians were axed. I have a feeling that Peter Rebuck might have been involved in the sackings. Anyhow, a bond was established between the two men and the naming of the trophy is, in my opinion, quite appropriate.

Yeah, Roebuck was the Somerset captain at the time and heavily involved in the decision to release Richards and Garner.