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*Official* West Indies in New Zealand - Nov/Dec 2020

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
I had to help organize some cricket stuff for the Windies boys getting ready for the test and a casual check up on what they think of our bench strength from the warm up matches they've played it wasn't Conway or Young. It was Ravindra, they reckon he is world class. I didn't want to mention some cricket forums with nerds place him few levels down from some of our more prolific domestic run scorers but they didn't see anything outstanding or special with the ones we put on a pedestal here :laugh: Only time will tell but this is the second touring team that predicts Ravindra as future world class out of NZ. Let's see time will tell.... I think Conway and Young are going to surprise them.
 

Flem274*

123/5
conway is the better player but his fans trying to tear down young is pretty cute. he's a taylor/latham level talent with a compact technique. if he has finally sorted his conversion issues and isnt allergic to opening he's going to score thousands of test runs.

i love watling and nicholls but they and blundell are a tier below young as pure batsmen. when young shows up wanting a ton, he scores one.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I had to help organize some cricket stuff for the Windies boys getting ready for the test and a casual check up on what they think of our bench strength from the warm up matches they've played it wasn't Conway or Young. It was Ravindra, they reckon he is world class. I didn't want to mention some cricket forums with nerds place him few levels down from some of our more prolific domestic run scorers but they didn't see anything outstanding or special with the ones we put on a pedestal here :laugh: Only time will tell but this is the second touring team that predicts Ravindra as future world class out of NZ. Let's see time will tell.... I think Conway and Young are going to surprise them.
i rate rachin but he isnt ready yet. besides his quality at his age is impressive, conway and young are what you expect.

also rachin plays in a manner the windies enjoy haha
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
Lockie has definitely made a massive case after the T20s. Most likely he'll play by the time Pakistan start their test series. It's going to be yet another tough one for someone to miss out not because they are not performing but purely because you can't quite afford not to have Lockie when he's fit and rearing to go. Lockie is to bowling what Conway is to batting right now.
 
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nzfan

International Vice-Captain
i rate rachin but he isnt ready yet. besides his quality at his age is impressive, conway and young are what you expect.

also rachin plays in a manner the windies enjoy haha
Not sure if I ever mentioned but it was Rahane and Vihari that thought Ravindra was an absolute gun player. Had a chance to catch up with them for a different reason i.e. getting their favorite bats fixed locally. They were surprised why he hasn't played for NZ yet. They think he's a super star in the making. When I said to them he hasn't scored a hundy yet at first class they were in absolute disbelief. They thought I was kidding.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
I can't think of a time when we are about to miss 4 players from the regular starting XI and not having to panic. Looks like we can comfortably afford to miss another batter, a bowler and even another wicket keeper. We have enough in the stock to replace them all without having to worry about the result of the game. Much credit to NZ Cricket for this and the age of majority of the players.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Lockie has definitely made a massive case after the T20s. Most likely he'll play by the time Pakistan start their test series. It's going to be yet another tough one for someone to miss out not because they are not performing but purely because you can't quite afford not to have Lockie when he's fit and rearing to go. Lockie is to bowling what Conway is to batting right now.
he should have been in the starting eleven for the first test against england last summer.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Very unlikely to see it, but Chemar Holder getting a lot more pace and carry in the Seddon Park pitch and having a man under the lid would be quite a good watch.


Well, maybe just against the king of the featherbeds.
 
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Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year

Published on June 18, 2020

Chemar Holder is more accustomed to going to war alongside Jofra Archer than waging one against him but the West Indies’ latest fast bowling talent does not sound daunted.

The duo, who met several years ago at Barbados club cricket, are team-mates when it comes to the online battles of video game Call of Duty but will be on opposite sides as the West Indians defend the Wisden Trophy next month.

Holder, one of two uncapped players in the official 14-strong squad, has drawn comparisons to England’s World Cup hero, not only for his background but his style of bowling. “I would say we are similar in having a slowish run-up and how we deliver the ball,” Holder said.

At 22, he is the youngest in a touring squad led by his namesake Jason Holder. Yet that does not mean a lack of experience in English conditions. In previous summers, he has spent time with Hampshire and the MCC Young Cricketers and he toured England with West Indies ‘A’ two years ago.

“You need to bowl a lot straighter and a lot fuller to get men committed on the front foot. It’s easy to play back-foot shots here because the ball comes straight on to the bat and even if you bowl a good length ball they can push it through cover, so the challenge is to limit the use of their arms and make them score straight down the ground,’ said Holder, who appears to have a plan for pretty much everything.

Sometimes plans change. Although he loves cricket, it was in track and field that Holder excelled in his youth. Indeed, he was chasing an athletics scholarship for his favoured distance of 800 metres in 2015 when he was selected for Combined Campuses and Colleges in the Caribbean’s regional 50-over competition.


On February 8, 2016, a month and a day after his List A debut, he was making his West Indies Under-19 debut. Inside another week he was a world champion.

Now he is on the verge of renewing his partnership with Alzarri Joseph at that tournament in Bangladesh — Holder has rarely played in matches with speed guns but was clocked at 87 miles per hour — on the biggest stage of all.

Of the chance to pull on the famous maroon cap for the first time in a Test match, he told The Mail On Sunday: “It would mean a lot to me because since I was a youngster I have wanted one. Every tournament I’ve played, every step I’ve made, has been working towards it.

“Even before the regional four-day tournament this year, I was telling guys that I was looking to take a stand, to take 40 wickets — not really so that people would recognise me, but for me myself.

“It was my self-goal. Not to please anybody else, just to please me.”

Two rounds were cancelled due to the Covid-19 pandemic but Holder was on course. His tally of 36 victims was comfortably the most for a fast bowler as his Barbados team were victorious.

A member of the West Indies’ backroom team believes he could make a similar impression to the one Ian Bishop made in 1988. Few knew of Bishop at the start of that tour, plenty did by its end.

Holder’s childhood hero was Curtly Ambrose. “I loved his attitude towards the game. He was serious. He played with a lot of aggression.” Standing at 6ft 2ins, Holder is far shorter than that prestigious pair. But a series of three behind-closed-doors matches in as many weeks will require stamina, which he has in abundance.

In the beep test on the pre-tour fitness camp, there was Holder and then dust. “I don’t see anybody beating me. I am always trying to push that limit, raise that bar,” he said. “Chemar doesn’t have a six-pack, he has a 10-pack,” said one of the West Indies party.

He also has his eyes on being No1 in another challenge. Among the activities in the games room of Old Trafford’s Hilton hotel, where his squad are isolating for a fortnight, is an arcade-style basketball hoop. “That’s when the egos can really come out,” he laughed.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Didn't take in much of C Holder's bowling in the A games, but makes more sense to me now as an Archer-style bowler - that despite the very straight and 'slowish' run-up he is deceptively quick. Would be interesting to see how he goes on a pitch that has life in it.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
Yes they've uploaded a lot of him on their official channel this year. Lots of bounce-orientated wickets against India A starting at 1.45.

 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
i rate rachin but he isnt ready yet. besides his quality at his age is impressive, conway and young are what you expect.

also rachin plays in a manner the windies enjoy haha
I don't think he's going to play for Black Caps within the next two years given our bench strength and the traditional approach of not preferring young players. That'll still help him mature as long as Firebirds look after him and not mess around with his batting/bowling technique. Doesn't matter if he's not scoring thousands of runs and taking loads of wickets. They should let him be and let him play the way he is right now. Averages will catch up over the time. He has very good but very simple uncomplicated technique with bat and ball. If they or himself mess with his technique or try to change things to hasten selection it will likely backfire and he may lose flair.
Very unlikely to see it, but Chemar Holder getting a lot more pace and carry in the Seddon Park pitch and having a man under the lid would be quite a good watch.


Well, maybe just against the king of the featherbeds.
He's quite impressive the jr holder and so is Joseph. I'm not quite sure if they both are in the test team though. Joseph is a tall aggressive hit the deck bowler. Finally WI are again finding some good fast bowlers.
 

Flem274*

123/5
windies have always had raw bowling talent. refining it for test level is where they've struggled since ambrose and walsh. they seem to have cracked it. shannon gabriel would be long since discarded as a no ball merchant in 2008, and jason holder and kemar roach little more than hapless medium pacers in the bad old days.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
You're being sucked in a bit by the very lenient examinations that were afforded to NZ domestic batsmen in the 2012-2019 period and also CD's very docile home venues, I think. Greg Hay has nearly 6000 runs at 43, Tom Bruce has about 3000 at 41, Dane Cleaver also about 3000 at 41.
maybe they score runs because they're better players? tom bruce does love a pukekura park knock, but you'll be struggling to find a better opener (technically or performance wise) than hay since 2010 and young is obviously a quality player in the making, if not on the conway level if he does prove as good as kane. dane cleaver is ****in good too.

turn it up on the decks. pitches that don't fire sideways like a lazily prepared early season basin reserve don't seem to stop your doug bracewells, seth rances and blair tickners dispatching all comers and none of those guys should be near the test side.

you're also extending the #engineroom era by a few years. looking around the first class records of guys batting in the previous 2-3 seasons, its not good. otago's batting is practically on life support.

and more generally mate, you know i have a lot of time for you and youre a passionate guy with the patience to trawl through hours and hours of footage of meme domestic batsmen snicking off to williams and mcewan. i probably should have called you out more strongly after your uncalled for crack at straw man, so i gotta say you're turning into a real leslie1 or benchmark00 here. you've got your player and your team and everyone else is secretly terrible, and also individual posters are beneath you and also responsible for nzc decisions.

put the salt back in the cupboard mate, you're better than being a jingoist for one player and you're certainly a much better poster than the two cretins i named above. it's getting terrible to read, and i say that as the most punishing anti-southee-white-ball-bowler poster on the internet.

i used to look forward to reading your posts because you were funny, extremely insightful and pleasant to talk to. now when i see you're the last poster in a thread i know it's going to be a low effort conway is god post and potentially a crack at another poster. devon conway's ****in jizzworthy m8 you don't need to go all will jordan fan over him.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
windies have always had raw bowling talent. refining it for test level is where they've struggled since ambrose and walsh. they seem to have cracked it. shannon gabriel would be long since discarded as a no ball merchant in 2008, and jason holder and kemar roach little more than hapless medium pacers in the bad old days.
Biggest change for us was 1) The Dukes ball 2) local pitches having slightly more in them over the last 3 years. Talented local pacers have something to work with and have been in the top 10 wicket takers in recent years, meaning they get more miles in the tank and experience some success.

There are 5 or 6 very good pacers in reserve at the moment in Keon Harding, Anderson Phillip, Preston McSween, Marquino Mindley. Then underneath that there is raw talent in Jayden Seales, Nial Smith and others. So we won't have a problem for pace bowling for a number of years.

We need a similar programme to improve our batsmen and spinners now.
 

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
Well Young is the one who’s been given the chance, so no point getting up in arms about it. It’s definitely way overdue for him, and I hope he does really well (pretty sure he will, as someone else said, his numbers are pretty crazy good in recent years for an NZ domestic player).
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
Conway is awesome and we want him to go real well like we want all our players to go well but international cricket is a different beast. The bowlers he will face will be equally good and will most often execute their plans. By all account he should go fine but everyone gets worked out in the end and there's bound to be some extended failures. No one's immune to that maybe barring Bradman. Phillips will also be worked out, it's just a natural course. I can guarantee you Phillips' technique will be questioned as he will be quite inconsistent the way he goes about. If collectively Black Caps are doing well and punching well that should be good enough.

Now is the time for Young to sit back and enjoy the ride. If others are good enough, they will get a go no doubt about that. We haven't reached the Aussie team's abilities of 2000s yet to keep away really good players. We're producing better results but not to the level the Aussies dominated so much so that so many good Aussies players then missed out on making the national side.
 

vandem

International 12th Man
Note that Young was close to a test spot in 2015-16. If NZ selectors had rolled different dice and picked Young for both NZ A games against SL A and Nicholls for 1 game only, and if there hadn't been so many injuries in the NZ ODI squad, Young might have been a test veteran by now.

What actually happened was that Nicholls got both games against SL A, Young game 2 only. Nicholls got 2 downhill skiing centuries (after Raval and Bownlie had 150 run opening stands in both games) and a good 88 in game 1 2nd innings after NZ A stumbled to 4-34. Young got a downhill skiing 66 in game 2. Then Nicholls was called into the ODI team after Williamson + Elliott then McCullum injuries, and made just enough ODI runs to keep him ahead of other options when Taylor was injured before the test series vs Aust.

Young had a better start to his FC career than Nicholls. Before the NZ A SL A series, Young 1788 runs @ 39.73, Nicholls 1582 runs @ 33.67. Century conversion rate you ask? No difference. Young 2 x 100 11 x 50, Nicholls 2 x 100 12 x 50. But Nicholls took his chances vs SL A and then in the ODI games and the rest is history.

TLDR version: "If others are good enough, they will get a go no doubt about that" - ain't necessarily so.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
Note that Young was close to a test spot in 2015-16. If NZ selectors had rolled different dice and picked Young for both NZ A games against SL A and Nicholls for 1 game only, and if there hadn't been so many injuries in the NZ ODI squad, Young might have been a test veteran by now.

What actually happened was that Nicholls got both games against SL A, Young game 2 only. Nicholls got 2 downhill skiing centuries (after Raval and Bownlie had 150 run opening stands in both games) and a good 88 in game 1 2nd innings after NZ A stumbled to 4-34. Young got a downhill skiing 66 in game 2. Then Nicholls was called into the ODI team after Williamson + Elliott then McCullum injuries, and made just enough ODI runs to keep him ahead of other options when Taylor was injured before the test series vs Aust.

Young had a better start to his FC career than Nicholls. Before the NZ A SL A series, Young 1788 runs @ 39.73, Nicholls 1582 runs @ 33.67. Century conversion rate you ask? No difference. Young 2 x 100 11 x 50, Nicholls 2 x 100 12 x 50. But Nicholls took his chances vs SL A and then in the ODI games and the rest is history.

TLDR version: "If others are good enough, they will get a go no doubt about that" - ain't necessarily so.
Outstanding review, didn't know that stats about Nicholls prior playing for Black Caps. I remember most other players then saying Nicholls is nowhere but that's not true is it?
 

vandem

International 12th Man
...I remember most other players then saying Nicholls is nowhere but that's not true is it?
Before his NZ debut? I think Nicholls suffered from "ugly duckling" syndrome, made ungainly runs in comparison to Canty teammate Tom Latham who was 1 year ahead on early career trajectory.

But when shifted to List A opener in 2014-15 he started putting runs on the board that could not be ignored - 45 (38), 60 (72), 70 (58), 89 (77), 12 (23) , 178 (161) in Ford Trophy.
 

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