***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2017

[Marius]

don't want to to derail the thread but what would a south african side without the quota look like? like would it be exceedingly different?

Yeah, at the moment I think JP would be out, and Temba maybe too.

At the moment Temba has redeemed himself, but I really can't see JP in the team for much longer.

Somebody like De Bruyn needs a chance.

 

[StephenZA]

Not sure if Steyn being fit again would cause another white player to miss out on his return would it?

Right now I would play Rabada in front of Morkel; but that would be a great argument to have without quota restrictions... question is would Abbott be in front of both?

 

[Shady Slim]

and how about the (full strength) LO?

 

[StephenZA]

Nope, I think it was only Taiwanese and Japanese businessmen who were considered 'white'. Chinese whose families came here in the early 20th century to work on the mines were also discriminated against (not to the same extent as black people, but still).

According to Wiki, the SA Institute of Race Relations said this about Chinese in the '60s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites

Group Act amended 1984....

 

[Marius]

Right now I would play Rabada in front of Morkel; but that would be a great argument to have without quota restrictions... question is would Abbott be in front of both?

I think Rabada would be in front of Abbott, and Abbott would be in front of Morkel.

Actually, I think an attack of Morkel, Abbott, and Rabada would be pretty good.

 

[Marius]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites

Group Act amended 1984....

From that same Wiki article:

The new designation granted to the Japanese seemed grossly unfair to South Africa's small Chinese community (roughly 7,000 at that time), who it seemed, would enjoy none of the new benefits given to the Japanese. As Time wrote:

If anything, we are whiter in appearance than our Japanese friends.' huffed one of Cape Town's leading Chinese businessmen. Demanded another indignantly: 'Does this mean that the Japanese, now that they are [considered] White, cannot associate with us without running afoul of the Immorality Act?'[1]

Inclusion of other East Asians as honorary whites (Japanese and South Korean), and eventually Taiwanese, complicated matters on how the Chinese were treated, and apartheid regulation on Chinese varied from department to department and province to province, as locals could not distinguish them apart from each other.

In 1984 the Group Areas Act was amended to allow Chinese South Africans to live in areas the government had declared white areas and use the facilities within them.[3] Chinese South Africans were required to apply for a permit from the government in order to move into a white area. Permission had to be obtained from all the neighbours in the suburb for the application to be accepted.[4][5]

 

[Dendarii]

and how about the (full strength) LO?

The ODI team hasn't quite been as stable as the test side, especially when it comes to the all-rounders, but think this might be regarded by the selectors as the full strength side. Maybe Abbott (if he counts as being available) in for one of Morris or Parnell, but possibly not as that would make the tail longer.

Amla
De Kock
Du Plessis
De Villiers
Duminy
Miller
Morris
Parnell
Rabada
Morkel
Tahir

That's one white player over the quota, which is essentially as a result of Morkel coming in for Phehlukwayo.

 

[jcas0167]

NZ appear to be picking up a few younger SA players at domestic & club level NZ, in part because they feel the path is blocked. It does seem though that SA cricket are managing with this ethnic bean-counting system better than the Springboks at the moment. I suppose it's harder to make inroads in competition with football. Also, South East Asians have more of a background with cricket than with rugby.

I was interested to read that Rabada & Bavuma attended private schools, which gave them access to top coaching & facilities. It would be nice to think that providing access or scholarships to schools with good cricket facilities would be the way to increase participation and quotas would no longer be seen as necessary at some point.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

NZ appear to be picking up a few younger SA players at domestic & club level NZ, in part because they feel the path is blocked. It does seem though that SA cricket are managing with this ethnic bean-counting system better than the Springboks at the moment. I suppose it's harder to make inroads in competition with football. Also, South East Asians have more of a background with cricket than with rugby.

I was interested to read that Rabada & Bavuma attended private schools, which gave them access to top coaching & facilities. It would be nice to think that providing access or scholarships to schools with good cricket facilities would be the way to increase participation and quotas would no longer be seen as necessary at some point.

in order to give scholarships to young black cricketers you actually need them to think that cricket isn't a white man's sport which it has been for the past century in SA. The point of quotas is to change the public perception of cricket as a racially exclusive sport.

 

[veganbob]

in order to give scholarships to young black cricketers you actually need them to think that cricket isn't a white man's sport which it has been for the past century in SA. The point of quotas is to change the public perception of cricket as a racially exclusive sport.

Great post.

 

[hendrix]

in order to give scholarships to young black cricketers you actually need them to think that cricket isn't a white man's sport which it has been for the past century in SA. The point of quotas is to change the public perception of cricket as a racially exclusive sport.

OK, that may be the goal, but it's probably the wrong way of getting there. Also, you gotta take it in the wider context of the things mentioned by the South African fans in this thread. It doesn't look good.

 

[Marius]

in order to give scholarships to young black cricketers you actually need them to think that cricket isn't a white man's sport which it has been for the past century in SA. The point of quotas is to change the public perception of cricket as a racially exclusive sport.

That's also a myth though, especially in the Cape. Blacks have been playing cricket for years in that part of SA - it's also no surprise that most of the black guys that have played for SA are Xhosas, and most Xhosas are from the Cape (or have their family origins there).

Ntini, Bavuma, Tsolekile, Tsotsobe, Zondeki, and Ngam are all Xhosas.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Nate and the other cliquey dullards - go look elsewhere, this is beyond your attention span.

The match had already been affected by rain, the forecast for the final day was always bad and yea it's NZ with a ground that isn't going to get properly covered or doesn't drain well - however you want to call it. It's incredible how conservative NZ were. You are trying to salvage something from a Test series when you're well on top. You have to win. This idea that you just shrug your shoulders and blame God for something eminently predictable happening is ridiculous. It would have taken a miracle for a full day's play to have happened. Most of the time you lose most of the day and yes the whole day is unlucky but still a distinct possibility. So for sake of argument lets say on average you get a session in. That's 30 overs for simplicity.

So NZ were 175 runs ahead with 39 + 30 overs remaining. The 175 runs is useful but not overly so. Because if SA bat most of those overs they may or may not score that many themselves, so it may save NZ 2 overs for change of innings if they need to bat again. But NZ batted so unbelievably slowly in the process of getting that lead, the 2 overs is trivial compared to the gains made by pacing the innings better.

NZ approached it wrongly. They needed to win. The game was always likely to be heavily curtailed. They should have aimed to blast a 100 run lead - yes it's easy to say in hindsight if you wiped out the 5th day, but that should of been the approach given the likely loss of overs and the series situation. They already started the day 7 runs ahead with 6 wickets in hand ffs. Seriously NZ would have had a better chance winning by losing 6 wickets off 6 balls than doing what they did. They went a long way to batting *themselves* out of the game.

Lets say for the sake of argument NZ scored 93 runs in 20 overs in the morning session (the 7th and 8th wickets put on 80 off 115 balls anyway - the 8th wicket was 34 off 35 before the farcical proceedings of Patel scoring 5 off 18), you could easily achieve that batting normally or showing a little more *intent*. The aim should have been 100 lead, if you still have the batting left and are going quickly, you can go beyond that. That's 39 extra overs of batting saved compared to what actually happened. Yes you have 75 less runs. But if you're chasing those in the 4th innings with a full lineup. How many overs do you think that will take? 8? 10? 12 at a push? Given the rain you're highly unlikely to be chasing anything significantly higher than 100, so it's not like you have a period where you have to worry about losing wickets in the 4th innings - besides the fact you need to win anyway.

Oh and batting like that would also have given NZ about another 30 overs to bowl SA out, with 2 taken out for change of innings and the remaining few to slog down whatever the target is.

But you know. Let's blame it on the rain. New Zealand did not deserve to get 'another crack' on the final day.

 

[Neil Young]

But you know. Let's blame it on the rain. New Zealand did not deserve to get 'another crack' on the final day.

However you got here, this is an odd and ham-fisted conclusion. A game of test cricket is five days long so of course NZ deserved a 'crack' on the fifth day. Unless you are advocating 4 day tests. Which is obviously another discussion

 

[Scaly piscine]

However you got here, this is an odd and ham-fisted conclusion. A game of test cricket is five days long so of course NZ deserved a 'crack' on the fifth day. Unless you are advocating 4 day tests. Which is obviously another discussion

NZ didn't deserve any luck with the weather because of the way they batted on the 4th day.

Obviously luck has nothing to do with whether you deserve it or not, but the point stands.

 

[CapeTown Guy]

It was blatantly clear from the start of the match that rain is going to play a huge role. New Zealand knew they needed a win, and while it was somewhat unlucky that the whole of the last day ran out - they should have played more proactively when they got their noses in front, considering they were behind in the series.

Ultimately SA won because, when they were on top, they won a Test inside 3 days, a feat which NZ needed to match to get the 1-1.

 

[Neil Young]

. New Zealand knew they needed a win, and while it was somewhat unlucky that the whole of the last day ran out - they should have played more proactively when they got their noses in front...

There is more than one way of being proactive. Ensuring you have a big first innings lead is one of them. And that's what NZ did.

 

[Zinzan]

Actually SP, both those conclusions are not mutually exclusive. 1) NZ could probably have been slightly more proactive with the bat & 2) They did deserve to get 'another crack' on the final day.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

OK, that may be the goal, but it's probably the wrong way of getting there. Also, you gotta take it in the wider context of the things mentioned by the South African fans in this thread. It doesn't look good.

of course it doesn't look good. there's no way to deal with massive gaping inequalities without pissing some people off at some point. *****footing around these kinds of issues leads to nothing changing.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

That's also a myth though, especially in the Cape. Blacks have been playing cricket for years in that part of SA - it's also no surprise that most of the black guys that have played for SA are Xhosas, and most Xhosas are from the Cape (or have their family origins there).

Ntini, Bavuma, Tsolekile, Tsotsobe, Zondeki, and Ngam are all Xhosas.

and yet, due to the systematic discrimination throughout the middle-higher levels of cricket, somehow the vast majority of dudes at the top where always white and blacks were always seen as the exception. I'm not saying blacks haven't played cricket - of course they have - but there have been massive social and cultural barriers to them playing higher levels of cricket. I'd love to think there was a way to deal with this issue less ham-handed that quotas, but I don't think there is one.